The basic philosophy behind Anarcho-Capitalism

I have some questions for WillMagic;
Can a person, who owns themselves, sign away that right? Could a person give ownership rights over themselves to another (if they wanted to)?

At what point under your view does intiating aggression become responding? If someone holds a gun to my head, and I get a chance to disarm him, it’s acceptable for me to do so. What if I have good reason to believe that a person will hold a gun to my head in the future? Would taking his gun (theft) or beating him up (destruction of property) be reasonable?

If I understand your arguments correctly, I should (under your ideal system) be the sole one responsible for the protection of my property and life, as would be everyone of themselves. At what point should a child be considered to “own themselves”, and be responsible for their own protection? It seems to me either a a child is the property of their parents, or they own themselves and thus the parents owe nothing to them. Is this correct?

All right, I feel a little bad for my role in opening the floodgates here. Howsoever…

This to me has the feel of a solution in search of a problem. You can say, “Taxation is theft,” but how many people actually feel that? Of course people grouse about taxation, but most people feel that “taxation is the price we pay for living in civilized society.” So what does your theory say about all the people who feel this way – that they’re deluded? Need to be reeducated?

Rune is right – this isn’t a political program, because it has no chance of success. After all , it’s not by accident that no society in the world is set up on these principles. So where do you hope to go with it?

And by the way, enumerate for us what you think the government’s functions should be. In the healthcare thread, you spoke of the right of people to sue medical practitioners for malpractice. That implies, at a minimum, the existing of a functioning court system and body of law, paid for somehow.

This system, in no time, would degenerate into mob chaos.

Let’s say I’m hungry, and I have no money. The guy who sells food won’t sell me any, so I round up a bunch of my hungry and poor friends, and we raid his store. This is immoral, because is theft. So what can this shop owner do? He’s just one against many, and he’s vastly outnumbered. There’s no police to protect him, so he probably rounds up a bigger number of friends, forming a bigger mob, and they come after me and my mob. But if they attack us, then they’re also violating our rights, the only one entitled to attack us would be the shop owner because he’s the one who got his rights violated.

At the end, the bigger mob would end up squashing the smaller mob, and chaos would erupt.

What about tresspassing? If I own a house and some random dude walks in and starts sleeping on my couch, he’s neither attacking me, nor robbing me, nor enslaving me. Can I still attack him?

What if a much stronger guy attacks me, or enslaves me? If I try to attack him, he just overpowers me, and then attacks me again? There’s no government, no cops, no trials, no nothing. I’d just be hoping someone feels pity on me and helps me out.

What if someone follows me around all day long, hurling insults at me? When does it become an “attack”?

One major problem with anarchism is that the best defense is a good offense.

Humans are constantly sizing each other up, constantly looking for ways to get ahead. If someone puts you down as an easy mark, then there is going to be real trouble for you. If you let minor slights pass, then the major slights are likely not to be too far behind.

So what can you do? Well, in our world, you can call the police. But in an anarchist world, you can’t do that. What you CAN do is to sew “Bad motherfucker” on your wallet. You can make it clear that any slight against you is going to be met with overwhelming force. And that way, you can prevent any slights.

Except slights from the other Bad Motherfuckers. When two of y’all meet each other, that’s how feuds, gang wars, and vendettas begin.

I helped organize an anarchist conference in my youth, but it seems very unrealistic the more I understand about humans.

Also, I reject the idea that ownership is the proper model for understanding human rights. We don’t own our lives; rather, we have a right to be free from interference with our desires, to a certain, mudy extent.

Daniel

Lacking a body of laws (which must be the case, lacking a government), how is defined the right to respond with force. For instance, can I preventively kill you because you’re about to step on my foot? Assuming I can’t, why exactly?
More generally, how do you enforce anything? I take you as my personnal slave at gunpoint. What is there to prevent me from doing so?

I would also ask how you come up with the concept of legitimate property. Let’s assume we begin to build a society from scratch (*). I happen to oppose the very concept of private property of land. I see no more reason why you could own land anymore than you could own air, and find it equally nonsentical (after all, you didn’t make the land with your hard work). Maybe I feel particulary accomodating and I accept that you can pick up a rock, make a tool from it and call that “private property”. Maybe I won’t (you didn’t make the rock, did you?). In any case, if you build a house, for instance, or plant a field, I claim that it’s usurpation of my right to sleep right where the house is build or to hunt in the middle of the field . What argument could you use to support the existence of this weird “private propety” concept (besides the “ownership” of your own body)?
Since your philosophy is throwing away widely accepted concepts, I assume you’ll find legitimate my questionning of the concept of private poperty too in this thread. I you can throw out “government”, I’m equally allowed to throw out “property” barring evidences supporting the legitimacy of this concept.

*(we obviously can’t let to each indivudual his current property, since it’s quite obvious it won’t be solely the result of his past, as you define it… for instance, transmitted property has been at one point or another obtained by theft or coercion and what you personnally made has been highly dependant on the benefits you got from society as a whole, beginning with schooling)

Actually, that’s a very good point. Since there is no government, there’s no regulatory process with certifies ownersip of things. I’d own something because I have it in my posession. So if I own a house, I leave, and then someone else moves in, how do I prove that it is my house, and not his? Through witnesses? What if the other guy has a whole lot of friends, and they all claim that it is his house? How do you know who’s right?

Hi WillMagic.

Thanks for starting this thread. I’ve long held a somewhat abstract interest in anarcho-capitalism but I’ve never had the opportunity to speak to one in person. While I appreciate you may have your hands full answering all the questions posed in this thread, I would be much indebted if you could take the time to help me clarify my understanding of AC.

I contend that a great many services essential to the smooth running of a modern society simply cannot be provided on the free market, at least not in a way which guarantees a utilitarian net benefit for that society. For instance, the supplantation of a tax funded police force with competing private security companies would leave the poorest and most vulnerable members of society either unprotected or dependant on the benevolence of his neighbour for protection. My first question is, if security in an anarcho-capitalistic society is provided entirely by private entities, who would investigate the murder of a citizen who was unable to subscribe?

Secondly, how would the free market ensure that no one private security company became too powerful? Imagine an island, let’s call it Ancapistan, where security (and everything else) is provided privately. Over time, two companies have risen to dominate the market: Pete’s Patrol Group and Dave’s Detectives. Pete’s company is the more successful, possessing a 51% market share while Dave owns 49%. It stands to reason that more of Pete’s disputes will be intrajurisdictional (as in, between one or more of Pete’s clients) because Pete has more subscribers than Dave. The same reasoning leads us to conclude that Dave’s company will have to liase with Pete’s more often than Pete’s will have to liase with Dave’s. It also stands to reason that an intrajurisdictional dispute will cost less to resolve than an interjurisdictional dispute.

All this means that, if both companies are maximally efficient, Pete’s overheads will be lower than Dave’s. If this is so, Pete can pass these savings on to the consumers, tempting them away from Dave and further increasing the inequality between them. Pete’s overheads decrease for every customer he gains and, if he invests these savings in price deals and special offers, it will stand to reason that the more customers he gains today, the more customers he’ll be able to gain tomorrow. After a while, Pete’s market share would increase to such an extent that the savings he’d be able to offer would trigger a hypertransfer of clients away from Dave’s, leading to the inevitable collapse of Dave’s company. Even if we hypothesis a perfect balance between the two, the relationship would be very unstable. Like a pencil balanced on its point, any advantage gained by one company over the other would be self-reinforcing.

We would thus end up with one company holding a monopoly on security. This company could utilise all manner of dirty tricks to stifle potential competition. They could use violence to suppress upstart companies (after all, to whom would these minnow’s appeal for redress?) and if that didn’t work they could exploit their size, employing economies of scale to undercut any fledgling rival. A society that privatises everything including security runs the risk of ending up a de facto city state. Moreover it would be a city state which, given the importance of security to pretty much everything, would have more power to extort money from the populace than stable representative Government does now.

The wholescale privatisation of roads would also pose a serious problem for an anarcho-capitalistic society. They’re already under a governmental monopoly but they could easily be monopolised by private companies. If I owned a section of important roads in an anarcho-capitalistic society and charged prohibitive tolls, the only way for another company to compete with me would be to build new roads. It is accepted in economics that potential competition will keep a single producer’s prices at a competitive level, but only if sunk costs are nil or trivial. Building roads costs a lot of money and time. If the monopolist temporarily slashed his prices, the demand for the new road would evaporate and any costs spent on the new road would be wasted. Once the competition was eliminated, the monopolist would have nothing to lose by raising prices again.

Thirdly, how would national defence be provided on the free market? National defense is a Public Good. By this I mean that national defense, once established, protects payers and non-payers equally. My enjoyment of national defence is not impacted by the introduction of any number of illegal immigrants into my nation. In other words, once national defence has been set up, it costs as much to defend a nation of five million people as it does to defend a nation of four million people. This is because the extent to which a country needs to be defended is mostly contingent on its geography and not on the number of people residing therein.

Now, in Ancapistan, citizens would have the choice to pay for national defence. They’d have to, otherwise it wouldn’t be a free market. Since, as we’ve established, I’d have nothing to lose by not paying, I have no incentive to contribute. But if no-one contributed, Ancapistan wouldn’t have a national defence force at all. Moreover, even if a proportion of people all agreed to pay a national defence tariff, the pricing scheme would be terribly unstable. It wouldn’t take many people to drop out to force the company responsible to raise the cost, which would then incline yet more people to drop out, exacerbating the problem.

In summation, then, I’d be very interested to know how you envision the private provision of security, transport, and national defence. Thanks in advance.

I’d swear this exact topic was debated several months ago. And I know that the one question I had was never answered to my satisfaction, so I’ll ask it again.

What is the method of resolving conflicts in this society?

If you claim that I agreed to pay you for your services and I claim there was no such agreement, how are the conflicting claims resolved? You say the free market can provide arbitration more effectively than government. What if one of us refuses to accept the outcome of this arbitration?

Further to this question, what happens if one party refuses to enter arbitration in the first place?

I’m with you at least up until this point.

I’m not completely on board here, perhaps because of my own confusion. The way you phrase this idea, it sounds like the Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist would have been find with shooting down the hijacked planes on the 11 of September, 2001, but, had no right to invade Afghanistan and overthrow the Taliban supporters of Al Qaeda. What am I missing?

The second paragraph here begins with an unsupported assertion. Taxation is not coercive unless you have no choice but to pay them. While current tax law may seem coercive, there is nothing preventing a US citizen from supporting the election of someone who will change the tax laws. As far as consctription, our government does not engage in it currently. Although it does reserve the right to engage in it, it would seen as unwise both politically and tactically at this point, and even if it were to happen, we as citizens have the ability to vote in representatives who will change the law.

Your assertions about taxation, conscription and war are completely unsupported. How can a government made up entirely of people who were chosen to represent the will of the populace at large be stealing from them? How can people who agree to live under a system where conscription is a possibility see themselves as slaves?

Full discosure: I have a great deal of distaste for today’s crop of young self-described libertarians are merely people who are simply too intellectually lazy to take on the responsibilities of participating as active citizens in a representative government. While I applaud you for delineating your viewpoint in this fashion, I can’t say it’s making me feel as though I have been mistaken in that assessment.

Thanks for clearly drawing the distinction. This really is a quality post.

Based on what evidence?

History has demonstrated that left their own devices as in a free market, humans will enslave and murder each other endlessly. I reject your assertion that the free market is in any way free of coercicve acts. Prove it.

In the free market, person X sells item Y to person Z. Person Z wants more of item Y than X can produce at a price Z likes, so person X enslaves person W to increase productivity. While anarcho-capitlalism, as you describe it, would reject this move as immoral, it has no teeth to enforce this view. In the absence of government, the only way to ensure that person W’s life is not destroyed and their natural rights violated is if person Z refuses to buy from person X under these circumstances. The only way to ensure that person Z is of this mindset is to have a centralized education system that indoctrinates all citizens as to the concept of natural rights. And you need some form of government at some level to bring this about.

ACs don’t acknowledge democracy or the rule of the majority. As of the op: “Remember, it doesn’t matter how many people sanction theft, enslavement, or murder…those actions are still immoral.”

Quite reasonable, if you think in moral terms. There’s nothing moral superior in a though just because more people hold it. But for a political system, it’s a dead end.

WillMagic, please step up and face the lynch mob! And bring your own rope, please! (Note: no polyester – it slips.)

It seems that, as you present it, anarcho-capitalism is an even less viable political system than straight-up anarchism, which at least provides a system to enforce internal co-operation (i.e. education, leading all to voluntarily co-operate in equal recognition of the truth).

Futhermore, the moral system you assert is one of absolutes- it is not necessarily true to say that, for example all human beings are equal (and, as another poster mentioned, how does one define human being? Where does a child stand in this each-man-for-himself world? Or a crazy person. Or, for that matter, an animal?). While I may believe that all humans are equally deserving of fair treatment, not everyone does. There are some (maybe many) who might assert that on the contrary, man is “entitled” to whatever he can take by force- including the lives and liberty of others. Also, you assert that murder, theft and enslavement are absolute evils that are not justified by a majority opinion in their favour, or, apparently, any other mitigating factors except for whether their victim personally offended against the person commiting them- whereupon they become legitimate. To assert that I may steal from a mugger, but may not tax him (even if the common good of the rest of the human race demands it) seems to me to be a nonsensical viewpoint.

Finally, even if all governments were to be abolished, what would stop them from reforming? Most governments do not compel the majority of their citizens to membership (there are, of course, exceptions), but rather people willing surrender a portion of their absolute liberties (the right to kill their neighbour, for example) in exchange for a number of advantages that are more effectively provided by the state than society (such as the inability of your neighbour to kill you- a centralized state-run authority being, as others have pointed out, almost certainly more efficient than the free market in providing law enforcement). Furthermore, the ability of many (is it most?) state’s citizens to change the character of their state removes the coercive element from a state’s functions. Would you perhaps be happier if an area was set aside into which citizens of any state could emigrate, wherein the rule of law did not function and it was, indeed, every man for themselves? I think that the vast majority of individuals would choose to remain in their countries rather than enter the free-market system that this would offer.

I don’t know about anybody else, but this made me smile.

AC really breaks down as a system when you try to apply it to Foreign Relations. It’s none to good on a nation-wide scale, either. As a moral philosophy for a small isolated group of uniform believers, it might work. For a little while. Until the biggest member of the society stopped believing.

Many good points in response. I’ve got a few additional questions:

Is the right to property equal to the right to life? For example, is it okay to break into a store to steal a rope to save someone from drowning?

What about the social contract? We have one since without it, life would be as Hobbes said, “nasty, brutish and short.” In the US at least, you have the right to leave if you do not buy into the current social contract, which includes taxation. It’s true that you have nowhere to go, but that indicates that this system probably is not very practical.

Our current systems evolved over 6,000 years or more of civilization. Has there ever been a working system of the type you propose? If not, would you discuss why? If everyone in society buys into the system, sure it would work, but so would pure communism and anarchy. How does the system work when a significant subset of people refuse to live by its dictates?

Again, stay away from the polyester stuff.

Pretty much what I was getting at above. I think for a small elite and isolated group it could work, and work fairly well…as long as you had buy in for everyone and you kept things very small and isolated. When you start expanding it to the general public though you’d have chaos on your hands…and when you further expanded it to encompass interactions between nation states its a recipe for disaster on an epic scale.

I remember reading some books in my youth that talked about an AC like utopian society…usually after a major world wide disaster (normally a war between the US and the Soviet Union). One that springs to mind were the Out of the Ashes books. When I was younger this kind of thing was quite appealing to me, but as I’ve gotten older (and hopefully a bit wiser) even hard core Libertarianism is not really workable at the macro level. Again, I think it COULD work for small groups of elite and isolated individuals who had completely bought into the system. But then, Communism could probably work in similar circumstances as well. :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

What I’ve heard from AC, as well as anarcho-syndicalists, is that the leverage an anarchist society has to enforce social behaviors is the threat of ostracism. In your example, someone who refused to pay for services, and did so egregiously or repeatedly, would gain a reputation as such. And in this type of economy, if people refuse to deal with you, you’re in hot water.

Eventually, though, it seems like you’ll get a good dozen or so folks whom nobody will deal with. And an enterprising soul among them will say, “Okay, here’s the deal. We’re now a brotherhood. Swear an oath to look out for each other, and any of us who breaks the bond, the rest of us swear to hunt you down and kill you. Now that that’s settled, let’s go loot and pillage!”

Indeed, that’s pretty much what happens when you’ve got social outcasts whom folks won’t deal with: they still want stuff, and so they resort to violence.

Daniel