The BATMAN

No.

The Joker’s original origin has him as the Red Hood, leader of the Red Hood gang. After a fight with Batman at a playing card company, he’s knocked into a vat of chemicals; his skin and hair are permanently altered in color. He’s not really THAT nuts, but he does have a major hate for Batman, and a criminal bent to begin with, as well as a knack for chemistry – even in his first appearance, he used his Joker poison (which kills while drawing the facial muscles into a horrible grin). His motivations had to do with profit, and irritating Batman, and creating a potent criminal reputation. Most importantly, his real name remains unknown.

In the post-TV-series period, he was retconned slightly; upon seeing his altered looks, he went totally crazy. Even insane, he is brilliant and lethal, able to invent the Joker venom, and continually alter the formula, so’s to keep Batman from producing an antivenom that will always work. His motivations become less predictable – sometimes, he’s in it for the money, other times he just wants to annoy or kill Batman. Again, we have no clue what his real name is.

During the eighties, in the post *Dark-Knight * period, *The Killing Joke * was published; in it, the Joker’s origin is again retconned. He is now a former chemist for a playing card company who quit his job to follow his dream of becoming a professional comedian; he’s failing badly, and is wracked with guilt for failing to support his pregnant wife, who nevertheless loves him very much.

Driven by desperation, he agrees to assist the Red Hood gang in robbing his former employer. In a horrible parody of the “no good very bad day,” his wife dies in a horrible/comical accident, his criminal cohorts are killed, and our hero is chased off a balcony by Batman, who thinks he’s the Red Hood; he plummets into a vat of chemicals and escapes… and sees his new face upon crawling from the river… and goes totally nuts.

This Joker has little or no interest in money or profit, except where necessary to fuel his other motivations, which are now more random and/or psychological; in The Killing Joke, he bought a carnival and had it refitted solely for the purpose of driving Commissioner Gordon insane. We still don’t know what the Joker’s real name is, but he remains vain, brilliant, and lethal.

It has since been said that the “comedian” story may or may not be the Joker’s true origin; the Joker himself has said that he doesn’t remember for sure, and that if he’s going to have a past, he’d like it to be “multiple choice! Hahahahaha!”

I don’t read much in the way of comics these days, but I’ve heard it said that the Riddler recently found out that the death of the Joker’s wife was not an accident, and that he knows who killed her. This would seem to add credence to the “comedian” story… but I don’t know for sure.

For those who missed it (like me :smack: ), it’ll repeat this Friday. Check your local WB listings.

Fixing that was a big pain in the ass. I’ll thank you not to do that again.

– Ukulele Ike, usually quite pleasant CS mod

Again, this isn’t the main canon, this is a completely new continuity - an Elseworld, to use the comic book equivelant. It’s familiar, but very different.

Elseworlds have made Joker:

A long-dead southern gentleman, who set off a long-term plan to destroy Gotham. (Detective 27)

A bisexual, drug-pushing large-breasted woman. (Thrillkillers)

A computer virus. (Digital Justice)

Etc.

Then there’s the old multiple Earths, which also differ from the main canon in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. (And let’s not even get into the Tangents universe they used for a number of 1-shots a while back ('98-'99, IIRC).)

This is not a major change by the standards that DC has set with the comics.

Like it or don’t, it’s not like it matters a whole lot either way.

But judge it on the terms of what it’s trying to be - a new, novel take on the Batman story - not what it’s not - a faithful version of the main canon.

Jeez. I’m glad I missed some of those.

And I might have been kinder to the new cartoon if the animation didn’t irritate me so much. The older series had smooth, fluid animation. This new one is herky-jerky and cheap-looking (except in scenes with the Batmobile, for some reason).

Tengu

Show me where I complained about Elseworlds? I have several of the Tangent comics.

Watching this cartoon, I never got the sense of watching an Elseworld or anything new or novel. I got the sense of laziness, crappiness, and changing things for no reason whatsoever. He bounces like Toad of X Men Evolution, and looks like a monster from Yu Gi Oh, why exactly?
What new insight or perspective has this show brought to the Joker through this craptacular transformation?

I dislike the whole jester look they seem to be trying for-the three locks of hair like a traditional jester’s cap, the plain vest with gaudy sleeves, etc.

I don’t see this as some grand reinvisioning of the character. I see ‘Let’s change the Joker.’ ‘Why?’ ‘Cuz we can.’ ‘Okay. He’s a clown. Let’s make him a . . . jester!’ ‘Brilliant!’

You, and several other people have been complaining that Joker’s NOT LIKE CANON.

The post immediately after the quoted one is the only one not phrased as ‘THIS IS NOT THE JOKER! LALALALAAAAAAAA!’

You’re the first person said anything about ‘new insights into the character’.

This is a new take on the story. This isn’t meant to give a new look into the version that’s been used for 60 years.

This is a new world, a new continuity, a new canon. There’s no reason for them to stick with the old version. They have a new start, free reign to redo the characters from the ground up.

Again, if you don’t like the new direction, fine.

Just shut up about how it should be like the main canon - the comics are still using the same version they always have been, JLU’s still in the old animated continuity, and DC and WB aren’t sending out hit squads to eliminate all the copies of the old cartoons. It’s not the main canon, it’s not trying to be the main canon, it makes no claim that it’s the main canon.

Put simply: ‘It’s not like the main canon of the comics’ and ‘It’s not like the other DCU cartoons’ is NOT a valid complaint.

:cough:MERCHANDISING:cough:

Even if they aren’t following the canon, the show is rather juvenile and uninteresting. I’m a fan of the ‘Jackie Chan’ series, but the animation style it uses just doesn’t work for Batman.

I agree with citrus: I’m not really read up on Mr. B from the comics and all that, so my complaint wasn’t really “Wah, it’s not canon!”

What I DID get is that stylistically it wasn’t working for me. The whole quasi-archaic sorta-art deco style of B:TAS REALLY worked for me. The current one just doesn’t.

Also, for me, the voices don’t fit anymore. Mark Hamill did (IMO) the ulitmate Joker, and Kevin Conroy (the voice of Bat/Bruce in TAS as well as B&R and BB) was positively AWESOME. In the more light-hearted Bruce Wayne segments, he could be easygoing and nonthreatening, but as The Bat his voice was gravelly and menacing. I don’t get this from the new guy.

And the new Bruce does look like Jackie Chan.

…or his cartoon, at any rate.

I’m not saying it’s terrible, but it’s nowhere NEAR what the old show was. The old show was just incredibly perfect. I might still watch, but I’m not gonna rave about it.

Excuse me, what is this new series? I’ve not heard about it. (I live in the UK so I probably won’t see it for at least a year) Cartoon? Live action? I’m getting the impression its a cartoon. Is it a continuation of the Watrner Brothers animated series? People are saying ‘Elseworlds’ - is it a totally different continuity, or just slightly unfaithful to the comic?

It’s a new cartoon, airing on the WB - we get it here in Canada in a couple weeks, who knows if it’ll get over to you guys.

It’s unconnected to any other version - live action, comic, or cartoon. Totally. Although it keeps Batman’s basic origin - Bruce Wayne’s parents are murdered, he grows up and becomes the Batman to avenge them - and most of the characters bear some resemblance to characters from the comics, it’s mostly completely rebuilt from the ground up - as the Elseworlds books are.

If you don’t know what Elseworlds are: DC occasionally does books using their characters, but putting them in unusual situations.

Some are very slight changes - remove one major character, see how the rest of the universe is changed, that sort of thing.

Sometimes it’s pretty much the standard, but in a different time period - the 1850s, the middle ages, etc.

Sometimes it’s recognizable, but twisted strangely - Barbera Gordon and Dick Grayson start as Batgirl and Robin in 1961, kicking the asses of corrupt police officers, Police Detective Bruce Wayne being inspired to become Batman after Dick is killed. (This is what happened in Thrillkiller.)

Sometimes it’s something totally off the wall - Batman vs Cthulhu or Dracula.

Then there’s the ‘existing story with superheroes inserted into it’ type:

Superman as Mowgli. Batman in a Jekyl and Hyde story. The LSH in The Wizard of Oz. Lobo in a buttload of westerns. (Save the Jekyl and Hyde story, these are all 1994 Annuals - a year where they did Elseworlds in all their annuals.)

That would be because he isn’t.

If they haven’t provided any (and they haven’t), then why bother to change him

No this is a big steaming pile of crap. This isn’t meant to do anything but get the attention of preschoolers and sell toys.

Except that they haven’t. This isn’t an Elseworlds Joker who is radically different. It’s just the Joker mixed with a large amount of crap. This isn’t an Elseworlds Batman. It’s just the standard Caped Crusader, blended with a large amount of excrement.

I will not shut up. They thew out years of continuity for no apparent reason and replaced it with merde.

Of course it is. Read some of the threads on the Halle Berry Catwoman movie. More, they didn’t ignore continuity to do something new or interesting. So far, it’s the same old Batman only written by lobotomized monkeys and the marketing executives at Mattel.

Batman Year One threw out continuity. You don’t see me complaining about that.

This is because BYO had a purpose other than ‘Let’s change everything based on feedback of focus groups, then make a soulless and brainless cartoon just to sell toyes.’

Because they didn’t want to do the same thing they’ve been doing for 60 years, maybe? They thought this version would be more interesting to the target audience? This version better fits the universe they want to create?

These are all perfectly valid reasons to change him - far more valid, in fact, than ‘but that’s not how he is in the comics/TAS/Justice League’ is for keeping him the same.

They have no obligation, no reason, and no motivation to provide insight to the canon version. That’s for the canon writers.

They have obligation, reason, and motivation to make a version that they think is interesting within the new universe they set out.

You are of the opinion that they didn’t succeed at that, that’s great, that’s your opinion. But since people keep harping on the fact that they CHANGED things - not what they changes were, I’m going to keep pointing out that ‘it’s not like the other versions’ is NOT in any way shape or form a valid criticism for something that isn’t TRYING to be the other versions.

Same goes for Catwoman. That they changed it isn’t a valid criticism. That what they changed it into is silly is. You’ll notice I never once said that there’s anything wrong with saying it’s silly. What’s wrong is complaining that it was CHANGED. Which, by the way, wasn’t directed at you until you started trying to defend it.

My problem isn’t simply that they changed things. It’s that they changed things for no artistic reason I can find, and then replaced the originals with crap. Again, watching this cartoon I didn’t get a feeling of a new artistic vision that required a new continuity. I get a feeling of greed and the desire to sell toys. Every change seems to be the result of that.

Tengu if the writers changed the Joker to better fit their universe, or to be more interesting to their target audience, or to do something different, they didn’t show me that. They took a vain, inteligent and lethal character and transformed him into a subhuman, idiotic, joke of a villain.

Since they did something different, clearly they wanted to.

Honestly - Joker’s never been one of my favourite Batman villains. This version is a LOT more interesting to me than the usual one. Mostly, probably, because the usual version has been seriously overutilized over the last 60 years - although in TAS he had the saving grace of usually having Harley with him. I’m, honestly, TIRED of seeing Joker on his own. He annoys me. He’s not clever. He’s not scary (mostly. In his appearance near the beginning of Outsiders, he worked). He’s not entertaining. He NEEDED to be revamped, IMO. Apparently the writers and designers for The Batman agreed with me.

I guess I’m confused as to what “artistic reason” they needed other than that they wanted to try something different that they thought would still appeal to kids. I mean, we’ve had Mark Hamill’s Joker on TV for over 10 years, I think that alone is reason enough to say “hey, let’s shake things up a little.” I mean, if they’re going to retell Batman’s story, why do the same thing over again?

For me it’s kind of like when they decided to use the Batman Returns design for the Penguin back in TAS. The fact that they decided to change the Penguin doesn’t really bother me (and the reason was just as marketing-oriented as the stuff we’re seeing now) so much as I think the whole penguin-mutant thing is really stupid (unfortunately, we’re getting another variant on that design in The Batman).

Obviously you can think the new Joker looks stupid (while I like him more after seeing the episode, I’m not exactly jumping for joy at the design), but I think the mere fact that it’s a new series with a blank slate is reason enough for a change.

Also, I kind of agree with Tengu. I’ve never been a big Joker fan; I really fail to see what all the hype is about (and yes, I own The Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told, I really don’t see what the big deal is). While I do love Mark Hamill’s Joker, I’m okay with a change (especially since the old version will likely keep showing up as long as they’re making TAS-style DC toons).

Also,

No cartoon is meant to do anything but get the attention of preschoolers and sell toys. Every single DCU cartoon has launched with an extensive toyline at the ready. That some cartoons end up being good is just kind of a happy coincidence; they’re all more or less half hour toy commercials. Going solely on the first episode, I’d say that The Batman is, so far, only mildly worse than TAS at this point (only because they mention the Bat-Wave thing by name). In fact, I don’t think it’s any more of a toy commercial than the whole Batman Beyond concept was, and that turned out to be an excellent show.

Hot damn, I started an argument! :wink:

I can (even though being on the other side, I’m thinking) see Tengu’s point, and I’m not disagreeing with it, exactly. But still: there IS history to be considered, and even though we’re talking about fictional characters, the blatant disregard for “what has gone before” still rankles as disrespectful to the source that people are currently trying to benefit from (does that parse correclty? It’s late, and I may have had a beer too many).

You must be a “young’n”. :slight_smile: This seems mostly true NOW (sadly), but it certainly wasn’t always. I will agree with you that most cartoons these days have precisely that purpose, but they USED to be works of art that stood on their own merits. If, indeed, this current BATMAN cartoon is for the purpose that you allege, then it is a definite step down from the previous ones.

Most cartoons that are made for television are crap.

There are exceptions, of course – stuff made for prime time has to have some quality to it (The Flintstones, The Simpsons, Futurama, Family Guy, and so on), but most kidvid cartoons since the early days of animation made specifically for television is crap, based on the assumption that children are the only target audience, and that children will watch any damn thing.

The original movie cartoons (the Warner Brothers’ stuff, for example) were not made for children. They were made for as wide an audience as possible, and were sent out with movies. Later, when the concept of a movie with a cartoon began to die, they were farmed out onto kids’ TV for decades…

…and lo and behold, someone figured out that adults will watch the things, too… IF THEY ARE ANY GOOD.

This led to kind of a cartoon renaissance in the late eighties. Stuff like Animaniacs, Tiny Toons… and Batman: The Animated Series. Stuff specifically targeting kids… but able to snare adults, too. There were simply too many gags in there that kids would never have caught. To this day, I still think the Animaniacs episode that’s a feature-length parody of Apocalypse Now, with the mad comedian-turned-director who’s set up his own private kingdom on the Warners lot, making an unreleasable movie… is one of the greatest animated parodies ever made.

But quality costs… and it is still possible to pull in the dough by using crap for bait. Many children’s shows still suck, are poorly and hastily written, animated cheaply overseas, and pumped out as fast and hard as possible, usually with an allied line of toys and ancillary merchandise.

Near as I can see, based on the first episode, *The Batman * has joined this movement.

I mourn.

Perhaps the next iteration will be better.

Many thanks for the info, Mr. Blue Sky. I had to work yesterday and I screwed up the programming on my VCR.