# "The beating COULD be racially motivated." - I'm over the double-race standard in America.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 15, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187 "2009-09-15T16:39:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/81 "2009-09-16T14:44:01Z")
> [@claude remains](#):
>
> i’ve read your post many times and still have nothing other to say than - fuck you,you half english frog fucker. Must have been nice to grow up under your mums skirt.
whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooooooosssh!
---
### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/82 "2009-09-16T15:20:39Z")
> [@billfish678](#):
>
> On the flip side, if it was a just a rare black dude on a nearly all white bus, Al Sharpton et all would be all over this shit, even it was the white jocks beating up on Erkle.
Since it was the other way around, [we had Rush Limbaugh and Michelle Malkin in the Sharpton role](http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=09&year=2009&base_name=theres_been_a_great_deal).
---
### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/83 "2009-09-16T17:18:01Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#):
>
> That would still mean that black criminals and white criminals are both more likely to target whites as there is a much larger pool of targets to choose from. Therefore more black criminals target whites then white criminals target blacks and it has nothing to do with racial hatred.
True, up to a point. We then need to ask: do blacks _proportionately_ target whites more than they target white? Does the proportion of victims-of-black-violence that are white significantly exceed the proportion of the \*population \*that is white? Then we might have something to talk about.
Personally, I’m quite prepared to believe that white violent criminals target _blacks_ to a disproportionate extent, too: I would imagine that violent criminals of any kind are more disposed to be racist bigots than their law-abiding brethren. But perhaps that just makes me a racist fuck, too. And of course, if violent robbers of either colour go after whites disproportionately, it could just be that they’re doing some simple racial profiling that has nothing to do with race hatred and everything to do with who’s more likely to have something worth stealing. You don’t have to be Robin Hood to want to rob the rich, after all.
> [@saoirse](#):
>
> Is it because you can be a perp more than once? Does it have anything to do with the fact that all interracial murders are only a little more than 1/5 of the total?
1. I don’t think so, although if you want to trot out some numbers, go ahead. I’d have thought the propensity to be a multiple perp would be evenly distributed on racial lines so wouldn’t distort the ratio. 2. Again, I don’t think so, for similar reasons - but that fact would be good grounds for saying there are bigger fish to fry than interracial murders.
> [@Miller](#):
>
> The number of white victims isn’t disproportionate. That’s the point. If 90% of the population is white, then one would expect that 90% of the victims of crime would be white. The proportion of white citizens to white victims is equal. It’s a situation that doesn’t need an explanation. On the other hand, if 10% of the population is black, and 50% of criminals are black, then there’s something odd going on there.
I think we’re more or less saying the same thing - although I have no idea and no real preconceptions as to whether blacks _are_ grossly over-represented among violent criminals.
---
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/84 "2009-09-16T17:33:16Z")
I’ve previously proposed Hentor’s Law of Post Composition, which says that the amount of time you spend composing a message board post is inversely related to the impact that post will have on a thread.
I’m thinking of a second law. Well, probably not a law, but I do think it’s related to the first. That is, the last thing people involved in a discussion on a message board want is actual data.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/85 "2009-09-16T17:48:40Z")
I appreciated your post and the work that went into it.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/86 "2009-09-16T21:04:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> I appreciated your post and the work that went into it.
Thanks!
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/87 "2009-09-16T21:44:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> I appreciated your post and the work that went into it.
I don’t. Too much data.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/88 "2009-09-16T21:59:00Z")
“The fewer the facts, the better the argument.”
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/89 "2009-09-16T22:49:16Z")
> [@samclem](#):
>
> Well, now we know more. It’s Obama’s fault.
>
> [Limbaugh: “\*n Obama’s America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering”](http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200909150017)
That explains the cheerful distinguished voice in the background saying “Yes we can… yes we can… Sasha, you get the next punch”.
Do Rush and Beck and their ilk even fucking _pretend_ to be rational anymore? They’re not going to be happy until there’s an assassination attempt, one to which they’ll then completely disavow any connection.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/90 "2009-09-16T22:54:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> You probably won’t see that at the stormfront website.
It’s fascinating how cross-referencing mixed with occasional statistic cooking can equal truth. The “blacks are 250 times more likely to violently attack white people than vice versa” claim on several websites is an absolute masterpiece of cross-referencing and statistic cooking and the occasional deadlink or a link to a book whose text is not available or an abstract of an article (which is very different from the article itself), etc.. People who aren’t accustomed to actual in-depth primary source researching are easily confused and taken in by such verisimilitudinous citings. [Cyril Burt](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Burt)and [Paul Cameron](http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron.html)made careers on similar citations. You could actually write a good college paper on it.
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### Author:  [@Alienhand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alienhand)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/91 "2009-09-16T23:33:20Z")
[deleted]
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### Author:  [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/92 "2009-09-17T02:55:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Is it your position that these statistics demonstrate that there is ‘a serious, unacknowledged black-on-white crime problem, the likes of which would be called “hate crime” or “race crime” if it were reversed.’?
It’s my contention that these statistics show blacks are considerably more likely to murder whites than whites are to murder blacks in the US.
I am aware of the various efforts to explain why this might be so.
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### Author:  [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/93 "2009-09-17T03:41:33Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> Where did he learn to pulverize a kid like that?
By watching Mike Tyson [bite](http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/07/07/tyson_wideweb__470x364,0.jpg) [off](http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/3/3d/Holyfield_ear.jpg) Evander Holyfield’s ear live on television. (\*\*\* warning- links in this sentence contain graphic photographs of human mutilation and may not be safe for work\*\* )
By seeing the results of Chris Brown’s having [beat the fuck out of his girlfriend](http://youthincontrol.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rihanna-beat-up1.jpg) and not do jail time.
Where do you think he learned it?
Emulation of role models.
Cartooniverse
---
### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/94 "2009-09-17T03:47:24Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> In 2005, for instance, 17.7% of all stranger homicides were black on white; 4.5% of all stranger homicides were white on black.
> In round numbers, there are about 5 times as many whites as blacks, so this does in fact, show quite a disproportionate ratio.
The stats can get tricky.
2005:
Black on black: 32.3%
Black on white: 17.7%.
So a black perp is a little less than twice as likely to kill another black than another white, assuming the victim is a stranger. If black perps were picking victims at random, you would expect black on white to be _five times_ greater than black on black.
Admittedly, blacks are more likely to be either perps or victims than whites. But we knew that.
While we’re at it:
White on white: 43.7%
White on black: 4.5%
So white perps are a little under 10x as likely to kill another white as another black. If they were picking vics at random it would be about 5x.
Obviously there are a lot of geographic, income and class issues I’m evading here. But I see there is no evidence of a super-proportionate amount of cross-racial crime, quite the contrary.
> [@Chief Pendant](#):
>
> It’s my contention that these statistics show blacks are considerably more likely to murder whites than whites are to murder blacks in the US.
Admittedly, blacks are more likely to be either perps or victims than whites. But we knew that.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/95 "2009-09-17T04:35:33Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> It’s my contention that these statistics show blacks are considerably more likely to murder whites than whites are to murder blacks in the US.
What statistics show that?
> [@](#):
>
> I am aware of the various efforts to explain why this might be so.
And your own explanation would be what?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/96 "2009-09-17T04:37:05Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#):
>
> By watching Mike Tyson [bite](http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/07/07/tyson_wideweb__470x364,0.jpg) [off](http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/3/3d/Holyfield_ear.jpg) Evander Holyfield’s ear live on television. (\*\*\* warning- links in this sentence contain graphic photographs of human mutilation and may not be safe for work\*\* )
I don’t think those kids had even been born yet when Tyson ate Holyfield’s ear.
---
### Author:  [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/97 "2009-09-17T10:43:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> What statistics show that?
>
> And your own explanation would be what?
I have already given you the cite. Did I misquote them?
As a general rule, impulsive stranger violent crime tends to take place in situations where the perp and the victim are already proximate by virtue of living in the same neighborhoods or homes. For this reason, black on black and white on white crimes are the commonest. We tend to associate with our own cohorts, and race is a common cohort for many people. It seems highly improbable to me that any racial cohort impulsively murders–on average–because of racial motivation. We impulsively murder whoever is proximate at the time the impulse overtakes us. I’d guess most impulsive stranger murderers are fairly low on any cognitive scale and that their behaviour is seldom shaped by a world view which includes some sort of objective philosophic analysis of race, and which races need killing. “Guy had a wallet/cash register/nice jacket. I shot him and took it.”
My posting of the crime statistics by race site was in response to a request from Guinastasia for a believable site for statistical information. It is not my intention to waste time here in the pit debating why those behaviours exist and it is highly unlikely that any such debate would change any minds.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/98 "2009-09-17T12:13:15Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> My posting of the crime statistics by race site was in response to a request from Guinastasia for a believable site for statistical information. It is not my intention to waste time here in the pit debating why those behaviours exist and it is highly unlikely that any such debate would change any minds.
Given that this thread was about an assault by an acquaintance, and that the assertion that Guinastasia was responding to was violent crime victimization, why did you selectively choose statistics on stranger homicide? The specific instance involves neither strangers nor a homicide, and the general statement Guin objected to similarly did not specify the qualifications you imposed.
Stranger homicides are much more likely than homicides in general to be interracial. On the other hand, the odds ratio for violent crime in general that I calculated above appears to suggest a slightly lower likelihood of black on white violent victimization than vice versa, and seems more germane to this incident and the assertions made up thread.
So what led you to be so peculiarly selective?
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/99 "2009-09-17T13:08:45Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> I’ve previously proposed Hentor’s Law of Post Composition, which says that the amount of time you spend composing a message board post is inversely related to the impact that post will have on a thread.
>
> I’m thinking of a second law. Well, probably not a law, but I do think it’s related to the first. That is, the last thing people involved in a discussion on a message board want is actual data.
I appreciate your excellent posture and great hair.
---
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beating-could-be-racially-motivated-im-over-the-double-race-standard-in-america/510187/100 "2009-09-17T18:59:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I appreciate your excellent posture and great hair.
Thanks!
All I want is a little appreciation and a blow job for my efforts.
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