# The beginning of the end of civilization. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 21, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363 "2012-03-21T01:34:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/1 "2012-03-21T01:34:44Z")
As one of the many politically incorrect things in which I believe: I am old enough (84) to remember when women were not permitted in bars. Eventually, some bars posted signs in the front that read “Tables for Ladies,” which meant they could not stand at the bar. Oh yeah, there were no such things as bar stools either. You leaned on the bar, put one foot up on the brass foot rail, and spat into the spittoon. However, the beginning of the end started when there were female bartenders. As decorative as they may be, it is never the same ambiance that I so fondly remember. Grumble, grumble. \ ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/2 "2012-03-21T02:00:51Z")
Wait, so your complaint is with female bartenders? How long have they been around for? Is it really a recent thing? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/3 "2012-03-21T02:05:20Z")
That is difficult to imagine and fascinating. What other memories do you have that are unfathomable by today’s standards? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/4 "2012-03-21T02:38:15Z")
Yeah my dad who would be 76 now [RIP wombat] used to complain that the pubs now open past 6pm! See ="[Six o'clock swill - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_o'clock_swill) ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/5 "2012-03-21T02:43:25Z")
Having been a female bartender for most of my working life, I’ll have you know, it helped to buy this house and this computer, not to mention a couple of few trips, around the world. Back in your cave! Caveman! ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/6 "2012-03-21T02:52:09Z")
Hey, some of my best bartenders are women! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/7 "2012-03-21T03:17:54Z")
I can see the point… Nostalgia is a powerful emotion. There was probably a strong sense of comfort to be found in old-fashioned men-only bars, where the guys could cuss and spit and tell jokes about women’s genitals. The “locker room” mentality; the “no girls aloud” tree-house. The trouble is, it is “othering.” It artificially alienates one class of humanity from another. And, as we know from the desegregation issue, “Separate but Equal” doesn’t actually work out. Separate tends to imply “less valuable.” In the early 1800s, men urinated in public. In a hotel, a man would just go to the end of a hallway and take a pee. The very idea that you couldn’t was incomprehensible to many men. But now we’ve got pretty strict laws saying you can’t. Downfall of civilization? Or…just the opposite: civilization’s progress. Most of us (I think) if polled would say that opening up more areas of our culture to women is better for our civilization. It not only empowers women, it also shows increased respect for men. It leaves us less greedy, less childishly snooty, less fooled by the myth of our own superiority. It makes us earn the respect of others, rather than simply declaring it by fiat. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/8 "2012-03-21T05:26:03Z")
> [@audiobottle](#): > > Wait, so your complaint is with female bartenders? How long have they been around for? Is it really a recent thing? Women have been tending bar and keeping taverns for thousands of years. Basically every since they were invented. It’s not a new thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sodalite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@Sodalite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sodalite)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/9 "2012-03-21T06:55:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > In the early 1800s, men urinated in public. In a hotel, a man would just go to the end of a hallway and take a pee. The very idea that you couldn’t was incomprehensible to many men. But now we’ve got pretty strict laws saying you can’t. > . Whaaaat?! How did that work? Was there a balcony or a pot or something? Surely they weren’t just whizzing on the floor. I genuinely love the stories old people tell about the “before times”. There are so many things that were _never_ covered or even mentioned in school or most history books. I’ve found that sometimes it’s the little things about everyday doings that give me the best understanding of life for other people. I was very isolated growing up so I’ve always wondered about how other people, even my contemporaries, live. When I was little, staying at someone else’s house was like going to another planet. I await your response with great interest and big shiny eyes. (_._) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/10 "2012-03-21T15:20:44Z")
Well in some parts of the world today, there are no public restrooms and much of the population is simply too poor to afford bathrooms at home, if they’re lucky enough to have a home. People do it by the side of the road. I’m honestly not sure what the standard was in America two centuries ago. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/11 "2012-03-21T15:38:44Z")
Come back after your nap and tell us more **KlondikeGeoff**. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/12 "2012-03-21T16:26:19Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Come back after your nap and tell us more **KlondikeGeoff**. He’ll need one, if he’s been around since before the invention of beer by the Sumerians. They had female bartenders and brewers. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/13 "2012-03-21T16:38:29Z")
> [@Sodalite](#): > > Whaaaat?! How did that work? Was there a balcony or a pot or something? Surely they weren’t just whizzing on the floor. > > I genuinely love the stories old people tell about the “before times”. There are so many things that were _never_ covered or even mentioned in school or most history books. I’ve found that sometimes it’s the little things about everyday doings that give me the best understanding of life for other people. > > I was very isolated growing up so I’ve always wondered about how other people, even my contemporaries, live. When I was little, staying at someone else’s house was like going to another planet. > > I await your response with great interest and big shiny eyes. (_._) Well I don’t know what he means by peeing at the end of a hallway in a hotel, but pissing behind a dumpster or in a alley is hardly rare even in 2012 is it? Maybe not in the USA where apparently it is a sex crime but the rest of the world, not rare at all(I see painted signs all the time imploring the reader not to pee here, ironically the sign lets you know the good spot with no views.) ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/14 "2012-03-21T17:04:18Z")
I’m wondering if **KlondikeGeoff’s** favorite watering hole has just hired some new female bartenders, and he misses the comaraderie and the discussions he used to have with the previous male bartenders. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/15 "2012-03-21T17:09:33Z")
Hey, Canada might not be a bad spot for you, Klondike: > [@](#): > > In Nova Scotia, particularly in Halifax, there was, until the 1980s, a very distinct system of gender-based laws were in effect for decades. Taverns, bars, halls, and other classifications differentiated whether it was exclusively for men or women, men with invited women, vice-versa, or mixed. After this fell by the wayside, the issue of water closets led many powder rooms in taverns being either constructed later, or in kitchens or upstairs halls where plumbing allowed, and the same in former sitting rooms for men’s facilities. As far as having to add plumbing, I worked at a place in Eugene, OR, that was a strip club turned sports bar. The men’s bathroom was large; the women’s was just a literal water closet, single serve. The cops used to hang out outside and give tickets to the women who couldn’t wait in line anymore and headed outside to relieve themselves. And that was only 20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/16 "2012-03-21T17:10:07Z")
Next thing you know they’ll be lettin’ the wimminfolk _vote_! ---
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/17 "2012-03-21T18:34:52Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Come back after your nap and tell us more **KlondikeGeoff**. Heh, I could bore you all to death with countless stories, but I won’t for now. At least not too much Of course, to all who took umbrage, I realize I neglected to put a smiley face emoticon near the beginning of what I though would be an amusing squib. In reality, I have not been in a bar for several years, unfortunately, but I really have no objection to bartenders of any gender at all. Women have been gathering at coffee klatches, bridge parties, et all to complain about how awful men are since just after they left the Garden of Eden, but the old-timey bars where men could do the same about the womenfolk are gone. Except, maybe in Canada. 😃 😃 😃 😃 As to the peeing subject, I lived in japan back in 1948-9 where many of the houses had a benjo (toilet) that consisted of nothing more than a hole in the floor. Underneath was a “honey bucket” which was collected for the contents to used for fertilizer. I refrained from eating raw veggies while there. I was talking to a youngun the other day, when the subject of how I shoveled coal into the pot-bellied stove puzzled him. He had not only never seen coal, but didn’t even know what it was. So I then asked him if he knew why we say “dialing” a phone, and of course he had no idea. When we first lived in Vermont, we were on an eight-person party phone line. Anybody know what that was? I traveled all over the U.S. and Japan on trains that were pulled by steam locomotives. And, anybody ever see a steamroller and a steamshovel? I spent two years in Fairbanks in 1945-7 in the Air Corps 10th Search & Rescue mushing a dog team all over the Interior. A perpetual hunting and fishing experience. Best damn assignment in the entire Army. Yeah, back then it was the “Army Air Corps.” I am so old, my first computer ran on kerosene. (Oh, jeeze, I suppose none of you know what kerosene is) I lived in NYC at the time the Empire State Building was completed. However, the Brooklyn Bridge was built before my time. All in all, I do still get nostalgic about the times of my youth, but as I contemplate life in the Great Depression, living through WWII, the lack of modern medical marvels, the lack of modern conveniences etc, I realize the “good old times” were not that good at all. OK, youngsters, ask me anything about life in the 20s, 30s and 40s, but dammit, keep off my lawn! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/18 "2012-03-21T18:41:35Z")
> [@KlondikeGeoff](#): > > OK, youngsters, ask me anything about life in the 20s, 30s and 40s, but dammit, keep off my lawn! Sure - what’s the earliest time you can remember when people in your social circle started to really frown on racism, sexism or homophobia? For example, the first time someone made a crack about black people/women/gay people, someone else said, “Hey! Not cool!” and everyone else more or less agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/19 "2012-03-21T18:50:53Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > As far as having to add plumbing, I worked at a place in Eugene, OR, that was a strip club turned sports bar. There was a place like that in Florida, except they turned from a sports bar into a strip club. They didn’t even have to change their name. The Scoreboard. ---
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363/20 "2012-03-21T18:55:43Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Sure - what’s the earliest time you can remember when people in your social circle started to really frown on racism, sexism or homophobia? For example, the first time someone made a crack about black people/women/gay people, someone else said, “Hey! Not cool!” and everyone else more or less agreed? Wow, good one. Really, nationwide, not until the 1960s I think. Back when I was young, and even in the Army, it depended to a great extent in what part of the country. Down South, of course, I’m sure in many cases racial epitaphs are still used. Up in the Northeast where I mostly lived I was frequently shocked by cracks about Blacks, Jews, foreigners of any race, even Gypsies. Often by educated and upper class people. When Truman integrated the army, I heard many guys from both the North and South who swore they would desert if that happened. It did, and nobody I ever heard of deserted because of this. The other thing that drove me nuts, and still does, is the hatred expressed toward gay people. I knew guys who bragged about beating up some gay guy. I really wondered about that motivation. Another thing that was not so good about those times. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-civilization/616363.md?page=2)