# The best candidate to challenge Barack Obama in 2012 is Ron Paul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114 "2010-05-03T03:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/201 "2010-05-04T23:50:28Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Al Gore could (and probably would) have been an awful candidate too. If 9/11 occurred on Gore’s watch, we would have been involved in Afghanistan and possibly other middle eastern countries anyway. If you’re right on this, this is yet another reason why Paul is simply not ready for primetime. If his response to a government giving safe haven and official endorsement to Al Quaeda would be anything other than to defend America, then he’s totally worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/202 "2010-05-04T23:52:28Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Okay, maybe he didn’t win every single poll, maybe I exaggerated a little. But it was overwhelming and it supported my position that he performed well in the debates. > > This is a very irrelevant point though. It’s highly relevant, because it demonstrates how readily you’ll fudge the facts, or just say things that sound good and support your position without bothering to actually fact-check your assertions. That makes you a non-credible source, and it means that you probably haven’t fact-checked the rest of the sea of text you’ve posted to this thread. Additionally, the fact that Paul won “all” the debates is core to your assertion that he can win the 2012 election. That was the subject of your OP, in case you’ve forgotten. You stated: > [@jrodefeld](#): > > Elections can literally be one on the performance in the general election debates. The fact that Paul clearly _didn’t_ win all the debates weakens your argument. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > You haven’t “proven me wrong” on anything. You were just proven wrong about post-debate polls. You made a false assertion and it was shown to be false. That’s the definition of being proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/203 "2010-05-05T00:16:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Ron Paul highlights a basic problem with the libertarian movement in the United States. > > I believe there are good, even compelling arguments to be made for libertarianism in many areas of American life. I have no doubt that MANY Dopers, on both the Left and the Right, would be open to libertarian arguments of one kind or another. > > The problem is, the real, live, flesh and blood libertarians tend to be utter flakes and loonies! > > There’s no particular reason that SHOULD be true, but it is. Long ago, a rather well known socialist named George Orwell wrote, in exasperation, “One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist and feminist in England.” > > Well, if Orwell were a modern American libertarian, he’d be writing (with equal or greater exasperation) that “Libertarianism seems to attract every smug Rand-loving teenager, Klansman, pot-head, gold-hoarder, snake-handler, conspiracy theorist, survivalist and UFO watcher in America.” > > Ron Paul seems like a decent man in most respects. Unfortunately, libertarianism is a fringe movement. And when you’re part of ANY fringe movement, you associate mostly with OTHER fringe characters, and get a very unrealistic idea of how normal and mainstream your ideas are. Crackpot theories start to sound pretty ordinary and reasonable to you.I don’t think Ron Paul is a hateful man, but he’s been associating with genuine racists and anti-semites for so long, their creepiness doesn’t even register with him. > > There MAY be somebody out there who can make an appealing, logical, articulate case for libertarianism. I’d like to see that happen, if only to elevate the political debate i nthis country. But Ron Paul is NOT the man to do that. Ron Paul does not associate with racists and anti semites. I assume by anti semites you are referring to people who criticize many of our central bankers, who happen to be Jewish. Or those who criticize Israels excessive lobbying of our government and the unfair treatment of Palestinians. That is NOT antisemitic. That is a common smear against anybody who criticizes Israel for anything. Ron Paul will talk with nearly anyone about his positions in the media. He keeps it clearly about the issues. For example he has been on Alex Jones’ radio show many times. Alex Jones supported him for president. Ron Paul doesn’t agree with Jones about a lot of things, but people would smear him for even being on his show. If libertarian ideas appeal to you, good. Vote for who best articulates those ideals. At this time I think it is Ron Paul. You shouldn’t base your vote on who else may support libertarian ideas. Most people do this and it is a bad practice. People should vote for ideas only. If you think Ron Paul is a flake and a loony, your going to have to give some more compelling evidence. You really should read some of his books, don’t judge him second hand based on what other people have written about him. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/204 "2010-05-05T00:28:08Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Ron Paul does not associate with racists and anti semites. Except those who write his newsletters. But he has no idea who those people are. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > I assume by anti semites you are referring to people who criticize many of our central bankers, who happen to be Jewish. Cite. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > Or those who criticize Israels excessive lobbying of our government You do understand that “the Israel Lobby” refers to _Americans_ expressing their constitutionally protected right to free speech, right? > [@jrodefeld](#): > > That is a common smear against anybody who criticizes Israel for anything. Riiiiight. Anybody who criticizes Israel about anything, is accused of anti-Semitic attitudes. The only thing sillier than that nonsense is the the denial that some anti-Israel folks are indeed motivated by racism. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/205 "2010-05-05T00:30:08Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I don’t think anybody should be hammering Paul for the 20-year-old comments in his newsletter and the (unfortunate) fact that Storm Front endorses him any more than Obama should be hammered for the racists rants of his old pastor. I certainly don’t expect every candidate to answer for stupidity of whoever happens to endorse him. > > It’s enough that Paul is a gold bug and a conspiracy believer (e.g. the Unero foolishness) for me to look elsewhere. Well, I appreciate that. At least somebody here understands that you can’t judge a politician simply based on some of their supporters. Guilt by association is used against Ron Paul because he hasn’t ever contradicted himself, flip flopped or been hypocritical on his beliefs and principles. As for you not liking Paul because he is a “gold bug”, doesn’t the fact that he correctly predicted this economic crisis years ago convince you to give him a little credit on economic issues? If you feel this way, why don’t you read End the Fed, by Ron Paul and see how crazy his economic ideas really are. And, about conspiracy theories, the only thing that I know that Ron Paul believes is that there are or were plans laid for a North American Union and a movement towards globalism in Washington DC. There is overwhelming evidence for this. He doesn’t believe 9/11 was an inside job, or in the Illuminati, or Reptilians, or UFOs or anything like that. Even if you don’t agree, I think the fact that he is vigilant about protecting our sovereignty is enough. Are you opposed to national sovereignty? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/206 "2010-05-05T00:32:26Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Heh…I think it’s (mostly) safe to say he’d get more than 50% of the vote. 😃 Yeah, what I meant was If he ran he’d get more than 1 or 2% of the vote. That sure didn’t come out right, though. I think if he ran he would be a top three candidate for the Republican nomination and would give the GOP establishment quite a scare. It would be fun to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/207 "2010-05-05T00:34:55Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > People should vote for ideas only. Ideas don’t run for office. Voters have to base their choices on what they know about the actual people who are trying to win their votes, not just on ideological checklists. Moreover, you’re contradicting yourself here. You’re encouraging those of us who disagree with many of Ron Paul’s ideas, such as the gold standard for currency or the dismantling of social insurance programs, to vote for him anyway because in practical terms he wouldn’t be able to put those ideas into practice. Where’s the principle of “voting for ideas only” in that little sales pitch? > [@jdrodefeld](#): > > As for you not liking Paul because he is a “gold bug”, doesn’t the fact that he correctly predicted this economic crisis years ago convince you to give him a little credit on economic issues? Many doom-and-gloom nutcases predicted this economic crisis years ago, simply by virtue of being doom-and-gloom nutcases who are always predicting catastrophic crises. Eventually, the doom-and-gloom nutcases are always proved right, because eventually some catastrophic crisis is bound to happen. But that doesn’t mean that we should automatically respect the ideas or predictive skills of nutcases on that account. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/208 "2010-05-05T00:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=jrodefeld] As for you not liking Paul because he is a “gold bug”, doesn’t the fact that he correctly predicted this economic crisis years ago convince you to give him a little credit on economic issues? If you feel this way, why don’t you read End the Fed, by Ron Paul and see how crazy his economic ideas really are. [/QUOTE] Even assuming you proved your case that he was indeed able to predict the current economic crisis (:dubious:), that doesn’t mean that he’s right about going to a gold standard. Even if we take away to blind squirrels and nuts effect, being right once doesn’t mean you are right every time. His position about going back to the gold standard is bat shit crazy, and it’s not supported by any main stream economist, regardless of which school they come from. > [@](#): > > And, about conspiracy theories, the only thing that I know that Ron Paul believes is that there are or were plans laid for a North American Union and a movement towards globalism in Washington DC. Well, but you see, it’s NOT a CT that is supported by any more facts than what supports 9/11 CT’s, lizard aliens, moon hoaxes or Kennedy assassinations. That’s the problem. The fact that he buys into one CT and not others just means he is a discriminating nutter. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/209 "2010-05-05T00:36:45Z")
I would love to see him run. Then he can expose the world to the contradictions and insanity that is Libertarianism. He would probably bring Paulson and Greenspan back. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/210 "2010-05-05T00:42:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I would love to see him run. Then he can expose the world to the contradictions and insanity that is Libertarianism. He would probably bring Paulson and Greenspan back. At the very least we can watch Paul and Fox News beat up on each other again. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/211 "2010-05-05T00:42:37Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > As for you not liking Paul because he is a “gold bug”, doesn’t the fact that he correctly predicted this economic crisis years ago convince you to give him a little credit on economic issues? -It’s been pointed out to you, numerous times, why the gold standard is a very bad idea. Why are you ignoring that? -As has been pointed out to you, Paul has been doomsaying for years and simply happened to be right at one point since he always predicts doom is right around the corner. Why are you ignoring that? > [@jrodefeld](#): > > And, about conspiracy theories, the only thing that I know that Ron Paul believes is that there are or were plans laid for a North American Union and a movement towards globalism in Washington DC. -So Paul is a paranoid with delusions of conspiracies lurking behind the scenes. This is a reason to distrust his ability to run a nation due to his unsound judgment. Why are you ignoring that? > [@jrodefeld](#): > > He doesn’t believe 9/11 was an inside job -But he believes that it should be investigated, suggesting that he believes there is such a need for an investigation. This either points to him being financially wasteful or, yet again, someone of unsound judgment and questionable powers of reason. Why are you ignoring that? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/212 "2010-05-05T00:48:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you’re right on this, this is yet another reason why Paul is simply not ready for primetime. If his response to a government giving safe haven and official endorsement to Al Quaeda would be anything other than to defend America, then he’s totally worthless. Are you fucking kidding me? You sound like Bush and Cheney. Al Qaeda doesn’t need “safe haven”. They can plan attacks from anywhere. We could, and should have gone after Osama bin Laden. Ron Paul supported this. Not attack a nation, not build fortresses, not bankrupt this nation. They attack us because we have been overseas bombing middle eastern countries for decades. Why wouldn’t they be pissed off at us? Anybody who doesn’t understand the motivation for suicide terrorism is not fit to be commander in chief. Since you have much to learn, read this book: Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, by Robert Pape. > **[Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism: Pape, Robert:...](https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/1400063175)** > > Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism \[Pape, Robert\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism Then you’ll find out why the “War on Terror” is such bullshit from the start. Did you know that the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka committed the most acts of suicide terrorism? Their main beef? Western occupation. Once we left, the acts of terrorism stopped entirely. The same would happen if we stopped propping up dictators, steeling their oil and occupying their land in the Middle East. If you would actually learn a thing or two about the issue, you would see this. Robert Pape, Michael Scheuer and all the experts on bin laden and terrorism endorse Ron Paul’s philosophy and foreign policy. Seriously, read that book. See, this is the type of intellectual discussion I am trying to have, where we can cite the experts on issues and find out the truth of the matter. It seems you would rather dwell on twenty year old newsletters, than the facts of our situation right now. Lets stick to the present, alright? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/213 "2010-05-05T00:57:08Z")
[QUOTE=jrodefeld] Are you fucking kidding me? You sound like Bush and Cheney. [/QUOTE] Just as a point of interest, Finn wasn’t exactly a big Bush/Cheney fan. > [@](#): > > Al Qaeda doesn’t need “safe haven”. Actually, yes…they do. At least if they are going to plan anything major. Put another way, it’s sort of hard to plan anything beyond a local level if you are running from cave to cave and looking over your shoulder for the Predator drone you know is about to put a missile up your ass. > [@](#): > > They can plan attacks from anywhere. Do they have magic? > [@](#): > > We could, and should have gone after Osama bin Laden. Probably not. What we SHOULD have done is stay focused on Afghanistan, neither focusing on one man NOR going off to have a foreign adventure in Iraq. > [@](#): > > Ron Paul supported this. Well, good on him then. He was right. However, we are talking about that Blind Squirrels and Nuts(aar) factor again. Just because he was right about this, doesn’t mean he’s right about other things. > [@](#): > > Since you have much to learn, read this book: Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, by Robert Pape. Instead of urging others to read a book, why don’t you summarize whatever point you think making the book would, well, make? > [@](#): > > The same would happen if we stopped propping up dictators, steeling their oil and occupying their land in the Middle East. Well, at least broadly, I doubt you are going to get much argument around here on this point. The devil, sadly, is in the details though. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/214 "2010-05-05T00:59:08Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Then you’ll find out why the “War on Terror” is such bullshit from the start. Did you know that the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka committed the most acts of suicide terrorism? Their main beef? Western occupation. Once we left, the acts of terrorism stopped entirely. Err…that’s not right. The Tamil Tigers were an active terrorist group until two years ago when they got squashed by the Sri Lankan government. Sri Lanka hasn’t been controled by a western power since the late 40’s. ETA: and glancing at wikipeida, they weren’t even formed till the seventies, at which point the Brits had been out for more then a decade. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/215 "2010-05-05T00:59:25Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s highly relevant, because it demonstrates how readily you’ll fudge the facts, or just say things that sound good and support your position without bothering to actually fact-check your assertions. That makes you a non-credible source, and it means that you probably haven’t fact-checked the rest of the sea of text you’ve posted to this thread. > > Additionally, the fact that Paul won “all” the debates is core to your assertion that he can win the 2012 election. That was the subject of your OP, in case you’ve forgotten. You stated: > > Quote: > Originally Posted by jrodefeld > Elections can literally be one on the performance in the general election debates. > > The fact that Paul clearly didn’t win all the debates weakens your argument. Do you really think I was talking about every single debate poll out there? I was talking about the post debate polls on the cable news networks. Every single poll I can remember, he won easily. I watch every debate. I saw how he won so many times that they stopped talking about the poll. Lets say he only won 85-90% of the time, does that really change my argument? The point was he did really really well. > [@](#): > > You were just proven wrong about post-debate polls. You made a false assertion and it was shown to be false. That’s the definition of being proven wrong. First it was my opinion that he won every debate. And the polls overwhelmingly back me up. Here is a few of the debates. What do you think? [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8Hfa7vT02lA/hqdefault.jpg "Congressman Ron Paul at the First GOP Presidential Debate") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hfa7vT02lA) ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/2WLGMLpA-20/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/2WLGMLpA-20?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AD7dnFDdwu0/hqdefault.jpg "Terrorism: Ron Paul vs. Giuliani @ SC Debate") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD7dnFDdwu0) ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/8BB3NrSpRGE/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/8BB3NrSpRGE?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque You think one of these other jokers won any of these debates? Its like a college professor lecturing to third graders. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/216 "2010-05-05T01:02:06Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Al Qaeda doesn’t need “safe haven”. They can plan attacks from anywhere. Nonsense. They trained their forces in Afghanistan, they gained security and a stable base of operations in Afghanistan, etc.. the idea that an international terrorist group can operate just as well without state sponsorship as with it is an absurdity. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > We could, and should have gone after Osama bin Laden. Ron Paul supported this. Not attack a nation You’re contradicting yourself one sentence to the next. Bin Ladin was safely ensconced in Afghanistan and we could not have ‘gone after’ him without putting boots on the ground in Afghanistan. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > Anybody who doesn’t understand the motivation for suicide terrorism is not fit to be commander in chief. You do not. Qutb didn’t start the Jihadist phenomena because of America’s military adventurism. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > this is the type of intellectual discussion I am trying to have, where we can cite the experts on issues and find out the truth of the matter. […] Lets stick to the present, alright? No, that’s not the kind of discussion you’re aiming for. You are repeatedly incorrect on significant factual points, you try to handwave away everything substantive about Paul while telling us you want to speak about the issues, you hold forth from a pose of fantastic knowledge that mandates acceptance and agreement were we able to understand, etc, etc, etc. You’re Witnessing about your faith in Paul, which is fine. But this aint an intellectual discussion. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/217 "2010-05-05T01:16:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ideas don’t run for office. Voters have to base their choices on what they know about the actual people who are trying to win their votes, not just on ideological checklists. > > Moreover, you’re contradicting yourself here. You’re encouraging those of us who disagree with many of Ron Paul’s ideas, such as the gold standard for currency or the dismantling of social insurance programs, to vote for him anyway because in practical terms he wouldn’t be able to put those ideas into practice. Where’s the principle of “voting for ideas only” in that little sales pitch? > Many doom-and-gloom nutcases predicted this economic crisis years ago, simply by virtue of being doom-and-gloom nutcases who are always predicting catastrophic crises. Eventually, the doom-and-gloom nutcases are always proved right, because eventually some catastrophic crisis is bound to happen. But that doesn’t mean that we should automatically respect the ideas or predictive skills of nutcases on that account. No, he predicted with accuracy and stunning specificity the housing bubble, bad fed policies and their inevitable correction that must occur. It wasn’t just some doom and gloom predictions. You have to give credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/218 "2010-05-05T01:21:36Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > See, this is the type of intellectual discussion I am trying to have, where we can cite the experts on issues and find out the truth of the matter. Except when anybody cites an expert who happens to disagree with one of your articles of faith about something like the viability of a gold standard for currency, at which point you simply dismiss them out of hand as victims of “fallacy” and “illusion” who are “fooling themselves”. You want everybody to show respectful consideration towards the views of the alleged experts that **you** cite, but you won’t do the same for views that **other** people cite. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/219 "2010-05-05T01:33:36Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > You sound like Bush and Cheney. […] > If you would actually learn a thing or two about the issue, you would see this. You were told to stop the personal comments, **jrodefeld**. This is a formal warning. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/220 "2010-05-05T01:52:42Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > No, he predicted with accuracy and stunning specificity the housing bubble, bad fed policies and their inevitable correction that must occur. Even if that’s actually true (and it would be nice to see a cite for it), so did several liberal Keynesian economists such as Dean Baker ([cite](http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mortgages/BakerFamily.asp) in August 2005 article about Baker’s housing-bubble predictions). And Baker (along with others) managed to be right about the economic crisis **without** bringing in bizarre fringe notions about currency standards that are repudiated by all serious economists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=12)