# The best candidate to challenge Barack Obama in 2012 is Ron Paul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114 "2010-05-03T03:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/381 "2010-05-06T16:55:45Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Explain HR 992 then? > > 😕 Sure. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/382 "2010-05-06T16:55:47Z")
James Madison was also _the father of the Constitution_. How is Ron Paul going to match that? And how is the NWO… which I think you also defined as the mainstream media and the Republican Party… the same as the British Empire? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/383 "2010-05-06T16:56:30Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [QUOTE=Galileo Galilei] > Ron Paul must go to war against the global empire. In 1812, it was the British Empire. In 2010, it is the NWO. Damnit, it’s no fair if you take my most extreme mocking parody of silly beliefs and then go and endorse it. [/QUOTE] The thing I find most amusing about that bit of rhetoric is that the most powerful “empire” at the moment - would be the US. So, let’s elect some guy President who’ll “go to war” on us! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/384 "2010-05-06T16:57:38Z")
By the way, Jackson did carry out his own personal War on Terror against the Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/385 "2010-05-06T16:59:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > By the way, Jackson did carry out his own personal War on Terror against the Native Americans. More of a War FOR Terror actually. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/386 "2010-05-06T17:03:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Are you being paid to post here? Just jokin’ around. Since I’m at work, you could make the argument. But i get paid if I don’t post as well. > [@](#): > > You said he opposed the NEA, which I take to mean the National Education Association. It came into existnece in 1857, 12 years after Jackson died. You said he opposed the War on Drugs, which can be dated to the late 1960s or to the ninteen-teens, at the earliest. You said he opposed the Department of Education, whose predecessor (the Dept. of Health, Education, and Welfare) was created in 1953. You said he opposed the war on terror, which dates to 2001. Is he opposing them through a medium? I mean the National Endowment for the Arts. Jackson never supported a war on drugs as president. That makes him libertarian on that issue. etc. Most presidents in the 1800s were libertarians, excepting maybe Lincoln, Grant and Benjamin Harrison. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/387 "2010-05-06T17:04:28Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > I mean the National Endowment for the Arts. That’s even worse. It was created in 1965. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/388 "2010-05-06T17:05:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > James Madison was also _the father of the Constitution_. How is Ron Paul going to match that? And how is the NWO… which I think you also defined as the mainstream media and the Republican Party… the same as the British Empire? Ron Paul will never be as great as James Madison, I agree with that. But he can still rise to the level of the lesser Founders. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/389 "2010-05-06T17:06:52Z")
I think the Trail of Tears pretty well disqualifies Jackson as a libertarian, much less a great president. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/390 "2010-05-06T17:06:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s even worse. It was created in 1965. Jackson opposed the federal government subsidizing the arts. He also opposed putting figurines of Jesus into urine bottles. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/391 "2010-05-06T17:08:02Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Jackson opposed the federal government subsidizing the arts. He also opposed putting figurines of Jesus into urine bottles. Do you think Andrew Jackson is alive and living in a trailer with Elvis? Perhaps true believers see his face on pizza pies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/392 "2010-05-06T17:08:12Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > He also opposed putting figurines of Jesus into urine bottles. That time machine again? ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/393 "2010-05-06T17:13:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, we refused British attempts to negotiate so we could flex our largely imaginary muscles, and got slapped about by the far more powerful British until we agreed to a peace treaty and essentially status quo ante. This is an outright lie. From the outset of the war, Madison had ambassadors in London who were instructed to end the war if the Empire stopped kidnapping US sailors. Ambassador Russell was his name in the summer of 1812. Jefferson and Madison had been negotiating with the British for almost 10 yeras prior to the War. In 1806, the british fired shots at the Leander near new York, killing a man. In 1807, they again fored at the Chesepeak, killing three, injuring a dozen, kidnapping 21, and stealing the ship. Over this time period, the British seized 400 American vessel and kidnapped about 6000 to 7000 Americans. I already listed about 40 battles where we beat the British on the other page. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/394 "2010-05-06T17:13:51Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Ron Paul will never be as great as James Madison, I agree with that. But he can still rise to the level of the lesser Founders. Funny, where is James Madison on [this list](http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=13379)? Or [this one](http://sourcedmock.blogspot.com/2009/12/libertarian-ranking-of-united-states.html)? Hint: look for him next to Andrew Jackson, in the “failures” section. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/395 "2010-05-06T17:13:59Z")
Well self-mocking is a better tactic than what’s been used to date, anyway! ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/396 "2010-05-06T17:17:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > By the way, Jackson did carry out his own personal War on Terror against the Native Americans. The State governments did that, for the most part, not the federal government. John Marshall even ruled in favor of the Indians. The problem here is democracy, not Jackson. Jackson did not represent the Indians because they didn’t vote. Unlike today, Jackson never whipped up anti-Indian war propaganda while he was president. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/397 "2010-05-06T17:18:33Z")
[QUOTE=Galileo Galilei] This is an outright lie. From the outset of the war, Madison had ambassadors in London who were instructed to end the war if the Empire stopped kidnapping US sailors. Ambassador Russell was his name in the summer of 1812. [/QUOTE] Just as an FYI, you aren’t allowed to call other posters liars in this forum. That said, I generally agree more with your take on the war of 1812 than DT’s (no big surprise there). However, I fail to see why anyone would be an advocate for the War of 1812 (what does this even mean??), or how any of this has anything at all to do with Ron Paul and his chances of winning election in 2012. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/398 "2010-05-06T17:20:46Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > This is an outright lie. [Read the rules, please.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448632) ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/399 "2010-05-06T17:21:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think the Trail of Tears pretty well disqualifies Jackson as a libertarian, much less a great president. The State of Georgia was behind that. Even if you oppose the trail of tears, it benefitted the average US citizen at the time. One mistake does not make a rule. Jackson’s first allegiance is to American citizens, not non-citizens. You strike me as the type who doesn;t wanmt the Mexicans coming here over the border. Well, if you are of that mentality, then Jackson is your man. Jackson’s whole family was killed by the evil British empire. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/400 "2010-05-06T17:23:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Read the rules, please.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448632) OK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=21)