# The best candidate to challenge Barack Obama in 2012 is Ron Paul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114 "2010-05-03T03:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/521 "2010-05-07T20:04:29Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I want to make a few pointed criticisms I have with liberals. I want to explain why a system of Free Markets and smaller government is more beneficial to the poor and needy Great. Your explanation is likely to be as compelling to low income Americans as Paul’s take on diversity and affirmative action being bad has been to minorities. And please, no more about Ron Paul’s wondrous appeal to black Americans. You could fit all of his black supporters in a metaphorical shoebox. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/522 "2010-05-07T20:19:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, I understand what you’re saying. Black men selling black men into slavery is way worse than white men buying black men for slaves. People owe more allegiance to their own people than to foreigners and strangers. If you sell out and backstab your own people, that is as low as it gets. You sound like a globalist. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/523 "2010-05-07T20:21:22Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > \*"Liberals say that they love the poor, needy, and disadvantaged. Unfortunately, however, the economic philosophy that liberals favor constitutes a direct assault on the economic well-being of the poor, along with nearly everyone else in society. It is worth noting that the [Gini coefficient](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Gini_since_WWII.svg) which measures income inequality trended down (toward greater equality) from 1950 to 1980. Then comes Reagan, the Republican Congress, and Bush II. Now we’re around the same rate as Mexico and China. I conclude that the Democratic dominance of government in the post-war years, up to Reagan, helped make the US a fairer place where poor people had more social mobility, and opportunity became more evenly spread. But having equal opportunity and allowing people a chance to excel really isn’t a priority for Ron Paul and his economic allies. They’d rather see a dog-eat-dog economic system based on sink or swim, and if you sink, it’s your own fault… no matter how many anchor weights were clasped to your legs. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/524 "2010-05-07T20:23:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They owned slaves, and wrote a constitution that allowed it and included the 3/5ths compromise. They most certainly didn’t oppose slavery, they practiced it. The Constitution allowed for black people to vote. That is why Frederick Douglass backed the Constitution. The Constitution also provided an incentive to the States to end slavery. The 3/5 rule raised the representation in congress and in the Electoral College of any state that ended slavery. The Founding fathers opposed slavery, and all of the leading Founders made statements on the record against it, despite slavery being legal and common around the world for 5000 years. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/525 "2010-05-07T20:35:09Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > The Founding fathers opposed slavery It’s this kind of silly statement that pretty much eviscerates your argument. You’re now actually arguing that _slave owners_ opposed _slavery_, and that buying human beings as property wasn’t as bad as being a race traitor so Africans were the real villains in the story. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/526 "2010-05-07T20:35:47Z")
> [@Galileo Galilei](#): > > The Constitution allowed for black people to vote. That is why Frederick Douglass backed the Constitution. If you mean “the Constitution would still have been valid if US legislation at that time had permitted blacks to vote”, you’re right. If you mean that the Constitution somehow made it effectively possible for blacks in general to vote, or formally recognized blacks’ right to vote before the 15th Amendment, I’m not sure where you’re getting that idea. I also can’t figure out what you mean by “Frederick Douglass backed the Constitution.” The Constitution had already been the law of the land for at least several decades by the time Douglass was born, around 1818. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > If you prefer Obama, you better be willing to defend his positions. Actually, preferring Obama to Ron Paul doesn’t necessarily mean that you defend Obama’s positions. It just means that you think that Obama’s positions, despite their admitted flaws, are **less** flawed than Paul’s are. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/527 "2010-05-07T20:39:05Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > People owe more allegiance to their own people than to foreigners and strangers. And you know whom these people considered to be their “own”? > [@](#): > > If you sell out and backstab your own people, that is as low as it gets. So what? > [@](#): > > You sound like a globalist. Is that supposed to be an insult? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/528 "2010-05-07T20:40:47Z")
What the devil did they put in the Koolaid down at Paul headquarters? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/529 "2010-05-07T20:44:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I also can’t figure out what you mean by “Frederick Douglass backed the Constitution.” The Constitution had already been the law of the land for at least several decades by the time Douglass was born, around 1818. Thomas Jefferson opposed violent video games but supported Marilyn Manson. This shows us that Ron Paul should be elected as our next president. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/530 "2010-05-07T20:46:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s this kind of silly statement that pretty much eviscerates your argument. > You’re now actually arguing that _slave owners_ opposed _slavery_, and that buying human beings as property wasn’t as bad as being a race traitor so Africans were the real villains in the story. You seem to be ignorant that many of the Founding Fathers did not own slaves. And all of the major ones were against slavery, they said it, it is part of the historical record. For your information, they did not own slaves because it was thier choice, the ones who had slaves inherited them. None of the Founding Fathers sold off their fellow citizens to Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/531 "2010-05-07T20:48:22Z")
Herbert Hoover had a subscription to Danni’s Hard Drive that he paid for with his Visa check card. At least, he never publicly denied it. Therefore, Ron Paul will surely be elected president in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/532 "2010-05-07T20:58:35Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > What the devil did they put in the Koolaid down at Paul headquarters? You oppose the Constitution of the United States. Ron Paul supports it. Ron Paul does not need your vote to win the election. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/533 "2010-05-07T21:00:31Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You seem to be ignorant that many of the Founding Fathers did not own slaves. And all of the major ones were against slavery, they said it, it is part of the historical record. > > For your information, they did not own slaves because it was thier choice, the ones who had slaves inherited them. None of the Founding Fathers sold off their fellow citizens to Africa. Where the heck did you study American History? We all know that many of the FF–the Northerners–didn’t own slaves. Some of the Southerners who did might have had qualms about slavery, but I haven’t seen statements from\* all\* of them. Supply quotations, please. During those times, some Southern slave owners did realize that slavery was wrong. Some of those were so committed to that belief that they freed their slaves, inherited or not. Those who had doubts but kept their slaves did so for their own economic benefit. Your last statement is out of touch with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/534 "2010-05-07T21:00:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And you know whom these people considered to be their “own”? You’re the one putting people into groups. Are you a collectivist? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/535 "2010-05-07T21:01:07Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You seem to be ignorant that many of the Founding Fathers did not own slaves. I know that “you disagree with me, therefore you are ignorant!” is a page out of the Paul Playbook for Making Friends and Getting Votes, but this doesn’t work. Remember, your claim was that the FF’s opposed slavery. By admitting that even one of them _owned slaves_,you have admitted that your statement was fictional and at the very least one of them not only wasn’t against slavery, but was so pro-slavery that they owned human beings as property. Of course, you’re also wrong in your next claim, I’ll get to that. > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > And all of the major ones were against slavery Fictional. Just for example: [ > [@](#): > > In 1784, five years before he became president of the United States, George Washington, 52, was nearly toothless. So he hired a dentist to transplant nine teeth into his jaw–having extracted them from the mouths of his slaves. > […] > Yet how should we view other framers of independence such as signer of the Declaration of Independence Richard Henry Lee and Patrick Henry, who traded and whipped their slaves? Or James Monroe, who, as governor of Virginia in 1800, after rushed trials, executed nearly 30 slaves after an attempted revolt? ]([http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040112/12slave.htm](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040112/12slave.htm)) Hrm, was it you who said that Paul is Madison’s second coming? > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > For your information, they did not own slaves because it was thier choice, the ones who had slaves inherited them. Likewise, fictional. [ > [@](#): > > After their marriage, Washington purchased even more slaves. ]([http://www.mountvernon.org/learn/meet\_george/index.cfm/ss/101/](http://www.mountvernon.org/learn/meet_george/index.cfm/ss/101/)) Of course your objection is nonsense in any case, even if it were true. “Sure they held human beings as prisoners and property and forced them to work for no compensation with a status less than white people, but at least they didn’t buy them originally!” > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > None of the Founding Fathers sold off their fellow citizens to Africa. Well, it’s a darn good thing that they weren’t Race Traitors. That’d be even worse! ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/536 "2010-05-07T21:04:42Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Where the heck did you study American History? > > We all know that many of the FF–the Northerners–didn’t own slaves. Some of the Southerners who did might have had qualms about slavery, but I haven’t seen statements from\* all\* of them. Supply quotations, please. > > During those times, some Southern slave owners did realize that slavery was wrong. Some of those were so committed to that belief that they freed their slaves, inherited or not. Those who had doubts but kept their slaves did so for their own economic benefit. > > Your last statement is out of touch with reality. You are the one who is trying to smear the Founding Fathers. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/537 "2010-05-07T21:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Ron Paul does not need your vote to win the election. If you have any pull, at all, please try to make this Paul’s campaign slogan. > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You oppose the Constitution of the United States. Ron Paul supports it. Surely can you cite him opposing the Constitution? Or are you now at the point of saying that not only is Ron Paul the only one who understand the Constitution, but that anybody who doesn’t agree with him actually opposes it? > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You’re the one putting people into groups. Um… no. You’re the one who said that the FF’s owning slaves (and choosing not to release them) wasn’t bad because people owe primary allegiance to their racial groupings before other people. Not that your “If you disagree with me, you might be a commie!” gambit is any less effective than the rest of your support for Paul… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/538 "2010-05-07T21:09:14Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You’re the one putting people into groups. Are you a collectivist? Are you joking? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/539 "2010-05-07T21:10:00Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You are the one who is trying to smear the Founding Fathers. This is kind of like that whole ‘reality having a liberal bias’ thing, isn’t it? ETA for clarification: except in this case it’s “reality is trying to smear the founding fathers”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/540 "2010-05-07T21:11:20Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Are you joking? George Washington had a wicked sense of humor and wrote an awesome standup routine about people meeting each other after first making contact in AIM chatrooms. This shows us that Ron Paul will be elected to the office of the presidency. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=28)