# The best candidate to challenge Barack Obama in 2012 is Ron Paul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114 "2010-05-03T03:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/541 "2010-05-07T21:14:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I know that “you disagree with me, therefore you are ignorant!” is a page out of the Paul Playbook for Making Friends and Getting Votes, but this doesn’t work. Remember, your claim was that the FF’s opposed slavery. By admitting that even one of them _owned slaves_,you have admitted that your statement was fictional and at the very least one of them not only wasn’t against slavery, but was so pro-slavery that they owned human beings as property. > > Of course, you’re also wrong in your next claim, I’ll get to that. > > Fictional. > Just for example: > > [ > > Hrm, was it you who said that Paul is Madison’s second coming? > > Likewise, fictional. > [url=[http://www.mountvernon.org/learn/meet\_george/index.cfm/ss/101/](http://www.mountvernon.org/learn/meet_george/index.cfm/ss/101/)]]([http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040112/12slave.htm](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040112/12slave.htm)) > > Of course your objection is nonsense in any case, even if it were true. “Sure they held human beings as prisoners and property and forced them to work for no compensation with a status less than white people, but at least they didn’t buy them originally!” > > Well, it’s a darn good thing that they weren’t Race Traitors. That’d be even worse! George Washington freed his slaves. That is documented. The tooth fairy story is not documented. James Monroe, who was governor in 1800, did very well. He was very humane, yet firm, in ending a rebellion. The same thing had just happened in Haiti, and their rebellion has led to 200 years of abject poverty and corruption. Not in Virginia. You also forget that slavery was legal in 1800 in Virginia and it is the governor’s job to enforce the laws. Monroe spoke against slavery and freed his slaves, but still has to follow the rules. Of course, you probably think Haiti is a greater light for human freedom than America. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/542 "2010-05-07T21:18:45Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > > [@Ravenman](#): > > > > Yes, I understand what you’re saying. Black men selling black men into slavery is way worse than white men buying black men for slaves. > > People owe more allegiance to their own people than to foreigners and strangers. If you sell out and backstab your own people, that is as low as it gets. Look, I understand what you’re saying. I’m not actually making any argument against it. I’d just like to know if Ron Paul has said that those African slave-sellers were worse than American slave-owners, some of whom, according to what you have explained, didn’t have a choice in whether or not to acquire the slaves. I’d just like to know if Dr. Paul has explained his views on this subject in any of his writings. If he has, I’d like to know where. I’m sorry I wasn’t making myself clear before, but essentially I’m just looking for a citation. That’s all. Sorry for any confusion. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/543 "2010-05-07T21:19:10Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Of course, you probably think Haiti is a greater light for human freedom than America. Trying to appeal to us through flattery, I see. I haven’t read the past few pages of the thread, so could you bring me up to speed - if the founding fathers opposed slavery, that will increase Ron Paul’s chances at the presidency, right? That’s the current argument? ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/544 "2010-05-07T21:20:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you have any pull, at all, please try to make this Paul’s campaign slogan. > > Surely can you cite him opposing the Constitution? Or are you now at the point of saying that not only is Ron Paul the only one who understand the Constitution, but that anybody who doesn’t agree with him actually opposes it? > > Um… no. You’re the one who said that the FF’s owning slaves (and choosing not to release them) wasn’t bad because people owe primary allegiance to their racial groupings before other people. > > Not that your “If you disagree with me, you might be a commie!” gambit is any less effective than the rest of your support for Paul… you are just trying to say that slavery is OK if Africans do it, but not Europeans. The Founding Fathers had to clean up a scummy situation casued by British slave-traders and African slave peddlers. They deserve a lot of credit for what they did, bringing more freedom nto the world. I think you are just an angry liberal that hates the Founding Fathers. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/545 "2010-05-07T21:21:34Z")
More flattery! You, sir, are unabashed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/546 "2010-05-07T21:22:44Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > George Washington freed his slaves. That is documented. The tooth fairy story is not documented. Fictional too. Washington’s slaves were freed _after he was dead_ and even then he specified that they had to be freed after his _wife was also dead._. And they were freed then only after he had been buying them for years (I notice that you haven’t retracted your mistake about that but you’re engaging in a Gish Gallop). And I provided documentation for the claim about Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/547 "2010-05-07T21:25:21Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > He was very humane, yet firm, in ending a rebellion. I knew you’d come around on Abraham Lincoln. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/548 "2010-05-07T21:28:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Fictional too. > Washington’s slaves were freed _after he was dead_ and even then he specified that they had to be freed after his _wife was also dead._. And they were freed then only after he had been buying them for years (I notice that you haven’t retracted your mistake about that but you’re engaging in a Gish Gallop). > And I provided documentation for the claim about Washington. George Washingto died suddenly you know. Do you think that Washington’s death is funny? ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/549 "2010-05-07T21:30:03Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I knew you’d come around on Abraham Lincoln. No, James Monroe. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/550 "2010-05-07T21:30:10Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > you are just trying to say that slavery is OK if Africans do it, but not Europeans. You might want to not draw inferences if these are the inferences you draw. > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > I think you are just an angry liberal that hates the Founding Fathers. Oooh, this can be another campaign slogan. “Ron Paul: vote for him unless you’re just an angry liberal who hates the Founding Fathes!” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/551 "2010-05-07T21:32:12Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > George Washingto died suddenly you know. Do you think that Washington’s death is funny? It is when you put it that way. [Obligatory link to the definitive George Washington documentary](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/552 "2010-05-07T21:32:16Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > George Washingto died suddenly you know. Do you think that Washington’s death is funny? _I_ think George Washingto’s death was funny, though not as funny as the fact that this post I quoted has nothing whatsoever to do with the content of **FinnAgain** ’s post _it_ quoted, most likely because if you responded to anything in there you’d have to admit you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/553 "2010-05-07T21:37:11Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > you are just trying to say that slavery is OK if Africans do it, but not Europeans.. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/554 "2010-05-07T21:37:57Z")
BTW the link in my post above is not entirely safe for work. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/555 "2010-05-07T21:38:32Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > George Washingto died suddenly He has something in common with the points you raise to support your narrative, then. By the way, of course Washington dying was _obviously hilarious_, because I hate all white males and think it’s funny if they die, especially if they support Freedom. By the way, you still haven’t retracted your mistake about Washington not buying slaves and your comment about him freeing them when they weren’t freed at all during his life but _after it_. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/556 "2010-05-07T21:42:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It is worth noting that the [Gini coefficient](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Gini_since_WWII.svg) which measures income inequality trended down (toward greater equality) from 1950 to 1980. Then comes Reagan, the Republican Congress, and Bush II. Now we’re around the same rate as Mexico and China. > > I conclude that the Democratic dominance of government in the post-war years, up to Reagan, helped make the US a fairer place where poor people had more social mobility, and opportunity became more evenly spread. > > But having equal opportunity and allowing people a chance to excel really isn’t a priority for Ron Paul and his economic allies. They’d rather see a dog-eat-dog economic system based on sink or swim, and if you sink, it’s your own fault… no matter how many anchor weights were clasped to your legs. But Reagan, Bush, and the Republican Congresses did not believe in free markets, and capitalism. Nor did they believe in smaller government, balanced budgets and free trade. They certainly didn’t believe in Austrian economics. They followed up mostly with increasing the welfare state, seeking out ill advised wars and blowing up the deficit. They also believed in corporate welfare. The real issue at fault was the breakdown of the Bretton Woods agreement in 1971 leading to a worldwide fiat currency for the first time in history. Before that, there were limits imposed by the pseudo gold standard we had in place. Since then corporations and business took over, inequality between poor and rich increased and we faced exploding deficits and an unmanageable system. But you still don’t quite understand. Equality is not the goal. We could all be equally poor. That doesn’t help anybody, yet that is the end result of poorly thought out socialistic, welfaristic intervention into the economy based on fiat money created in secret by a central bank. The goal is to pursue economic policies that allow the maximum number of people to be successful and to raise their standard of living. Did you actually read that article? What is your answer to the way wealth is created in a society? As the article says, liberals and interventionists take for granted that there is wealth in a society and they can redistribute it to make everybody equal. In reality this approach destroys wealth and lowers everyones standard of living. It is only Free Enterprise and the free economy that has been able to, for the most part, eliminate poverty and raise everyones standard of living. Why, exactly are liberals so opposed to the only system of economics that lifts people out of poverty? This seams to be the main objection to Ron Paul and libertarian ideology in this forum. What is your answer? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/557 "2010-05-07T21:42:40Z")
The man DID invent cocaine, though, so he had that going for him. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/558 "2010-05-07T21:45:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You might want to not draw inferences if these are the inferences you draw. > > Oooh, this can be another campaign slogan. > “Ron Paul: vote for him unless you’re just an angry liberal who hates the Founding Fathes!” How about this slogan; “Don’t vote for Ron Paul, he likes our Founding Fathers!”. LATEST POLL: Favorable/Unfavroable George Washington 94%/2% John Adams 74%/9% Thomas Jefferson 89%/4% James Madison 72%/8% James Monroe 49%/10% John Quincy Adams 59%/7% Andrew Jackson 69%/14% AVERAGE OF OUR FIRST SEVEN PRESIDENTS: 72% favorable 8% unfavorable > **[Presidential Favorables - Rasmussen Reports®](https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/favorables/presidential_favorables)** ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/559 "2010-05-07T21:46:44Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > The man DID invent cocaine, though, so he had that going for him. That’s just silly. The ancient Incas were supportive of the conversion to HD television. That shows that Ron Paul will win the 2012 election. > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > How about this slogan; “Don’t vote for Ron Paul, he likes our Founding Fathers!”. Ooooh, yeah, the true issue that all voters care about, the Founding Fathers. May I suggest, however, “Ron Paul: he likes both puppies and kittens. Kittens are Liberty!” ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/560 "2010-05-07T21:47:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s this kind of silly statement that pretty much eviscerates your argument. > You’re now actually arguing that _slave owners_ opposed _slavery_, and that buying human beings as property wasn’t as bad as being a race traitor so Africans were the real villains in the story. Ignorance. Were did you learn history? “It were doubtless to be wished, that the power of prohibiting the importation of slaves had not been postponed until the year 1808, or rather that it had been suffered to have immediate operation. But it is not difficult to account, either for this restriction on the general government, or for the manner in which the whole clause is expressed. It ought to be considered as a great point gained in favor of humanity, that a period of twenty years may terminate forever, within these States, a traffic which has so long and so loudly upbraided the barbarism of modern policy; that within that period, it will receive a considerable discouragement from the federal government, and may be totally abolished, by a concurrence of the few States which continue the unnatural traffic, in the prohibitory example which has been given by so great a majority of the Union. Happy would it be for the unfortunate Africans, if an equal prospect lay before them of being redeemed from the oppressions of their European brethren!” – James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 42 “Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, or morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both.” – Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, Library of Congress, Manuscript Division, 1816 “I believe a time will come when an opportunity will be offered to abolish this lamentable evil.” – Patrick Henry, letter to Robert Pleasants, January 18, 1773 “Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free.” – Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1821 “[The Convention] thought it wrong to admit in the Constitution the idea that there could be property in men.” – James Madison, Records of the Convention, August 25, 1787 “There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it.” – George Washington, letter to Robert Morris, April 12, 1786 “We have seen the mere distinction of color made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man.” – James Madison, speech at the Constitutional Convention, June 6, 1787 “Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States … I have, throughout my whole life, held the practice of slavery in … abhorrence.” – John Adams, letter to Robert Evans, June 8, 1819 “It is much to be wished that slavery may be abolished. The honour of the States, as well as justice and humanity, in my opinion, loudly call upon them to emancipate these unhappy people. To contend for our own liberty, and to deny that blessing to others, involves an inconsistency not to be excused.” –John Jay, letter to R. Lushington, March 15, 1786 Another of my wishes is to depend as little as possible on the labour of slaves. – James Madison, Letter to R. H. Lee, July 17, 1785 (Madison, 1865, I, page 161) [W]e must deny the fact, that slaves are considered merely as property, and in no respect whatever as persons. The true state of the case is, that they partake of both these qualities: being considered by our laws, in some respects, as persons, and in other respects as property. In being compelled to labor, not for himself, but for a master; in being vendible by one master to another master; and in being subject at all times to be restrained in his liberty and chastised in his body, by the capricious will of another, the slave may appear to be degraded from the human rank, and classed with those irrational animals which fall under the legal denomination of property. In being protected, on the other hand, in his life and in his limbs, against the violence of all others, even the master of his labor and his liberty; and in being punishable himself for all violence committed against others, the slave is no less evidently regarded by the law as a member of the society, not as a part of the irrational creation; as a moral person, not as a mere article of property. – James Madison, Federalist, no. 54 American citizens are instrumental in carrying on a traffic in enslaved Africans, equally in violation of the laws of humanity and in defiance of those of their own country. The same just and benevolent motives which produced interdiction in force against this criminal conduct will doubtless be felt by Congress in devising further means of suppressing the evil. – James Madison, State of the Union,1810 It is due to justice; due to humanity; due to truth; due to the sympathies of our nature; in fine, to our character as a people, both abroad and at home, that they should be considered, as much as possible, in the light of human beings, and not as mere property. As such, they are acted on by our laws, and have an interest in our laws. They may be considered as making a part, though a degraded part, of the families to which they belong. – James Madison, Speech in the Virginia State Convention of 1829-30, on the Question of the Ratio of Representation in the two Branches of the Legislature, December 2, 1829. Outlets for the freed blacks are alone wanted for the erasure of the blot from our Republican character. – James Madison, Letter to General La Fayette, February 1, 1830. \*f slavery, as a national evil, is to be abolished, and it be just that it be done at the national expense, the amount of the expense is not a paramount consideration. – James Madison, Letter to Robert J. Evans In contemplating the pecuniary resources needed for the removal of such a number to so great a distance [freed slaves to Africa], my thoughts and hopes have long been turned to the rich fund presented in the western lands of the nation . . ." – James Madison, Letter to R. R. Gurley, December 28, 1831. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=29)