# The best candidate to challenge Barack Obama in 2012 is Ron Paul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114 "2010-05-03T03:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/561 "2010-05-07T21:50:42Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Did you actually read that article? No, but I saw the YouTube video. Nice RickRoll! > [@](#): > > What is your answer to the way wealth is created in a society? Why, the government passes a law that says poor people should get richer. And they do! That’s the way it has always worked! (Except in Olden Days, when the King would write an edict decreeing that the poor should not be as poor as they were, in which case the poor would get heaps of ducats and sovereigns to buy new thatch for their mud huts… but the American Revolution put an end to that economic system. Huzzah!) > [@](#): > > Why, exactly are liberals so opposed to the only system of economics that lifts people out of poverty? The more poor people there are, the more money I make. I’m one of them limousine liberals. I like to make fun of poor people and call them stupid as I toss my empty Grey Poupon jars at them from out of my Bugatti, which runs on biofuel produced from human embryos. > [@](#): > > What is your answer? 1. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/562 "2010-05-07T21:52:30Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/563 "2010-05-07T21:53:22Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Ignorance. Were did you learn history? So not only can you not address the facts, let alone refute them, but you’d prefer to change the subject from how many of the FF’s owned slaves and refused to release them to how many said some things while still owning/buying/retaining slaves. Go figure. Just to clarify, the matter is not about what they _said_ but what their _actions were._ If you say that slavery is bad while you’re buying slaves and/or refusing to release the ones you already have, it’s kinda clear what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/564 "2010-05-07T21:53:50Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > AVERAGE OF OUR FIRST SEVEN PRESIDENTS: > > 72% favorable > 8% unfavorable So your argument is that they are popular, therefore they can’t do wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/565 "2010-05-07T21:54:38Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Ignorance. Were did you learn history? > > “It were doubtless to be wished, that the power of prohibiting the importation of slaves had not been postponed until the year 1808, or rather that it had been suffered to have immediate operation. But it is not difficult to account, either for this restriction on the general government, or for the manner in which the whole clause is expressed. It ought to be considered as a great point gained in favor of humanity, that a period of twenty years may terminate forever, within these States, a traffic which has so long and so loudly upbraided the barbarism of modern policy; that within that period, it will receive a considerable discouragement from the federal government, and may be totally abolished, by a concurrence of the few States which continue the unnatural traffic, in the prohibitory example which has been given by so great a majority of the Union. Happy would it be for the unfortunate Africans, if an equal prospect lay before them of being redeemed from the oppressions of their European brethren!” > – James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 42 > > “Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, or morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both.” > – Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, Library of Congress, Manuscript Division, 1816 > > “I believe a time will come when an opportunity will be offered to abolish this lamentable evil.” > – Patrick Henry, letter to Robert Pleasants, January 18, 1773 > > “Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free.” > – Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1821 > > “[The Convention] thought it wrong to admit in the Constitution the idea that there could be property in men.” > – James Madison, Records of the Convention, August 25, 1787 > > “There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it.” > – George Washington, letter to Robert Morris, April 12, 1786 > > “We have seen the mere distinction of color made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man.” > – James Madison, speech at the Constitutional Convention, June 6, 1787 > > “Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States … I have, throughout my whole life, held the practice of slavery in … abhorrence.” > – John Adams, letter to Robert Evans, June 8, 1819 > > “It is much to be wished that slavery may be abolished. The honour of the States, as well as justice and humanity, in my opinion, loudly call upon them to emancipate these unhappy people. To contend for our own liberty, and to deny that blessing to others, involves an inconsistency not to be excused.” > –John Jay, letter to R. Lushington, March 15, 1786 > > Another of my wishes is to depend as little as possible on the labour of slaves. > – James Madison, Letter to R. H. Lee, July 17, 1785 (Madison, 1865, I, page 161) > > [W]e must deny the fact, that slaves are considered merely as property, and in no respect whatever as persons. The true state of the case is, that they partake of both these qualities: being considered by our laws, in some respects, as persons, and in other respects as property. In being compelled to labor, not for himself, but for a master; in being vendible by one master to another master; and in being subject at all times to be restrained in his liberty and chastised in his body, by the capricious will of another, the slave may appear to be degraded from the human rank, and classed with those irrational animals which fall under the legal denomination of property. In being protected, on the other hand, in his life and in his limbs, against the violence of all others, even the master of his labor and his liberty; and in being punishable himself for all violence committed against others, the slave is no less evidently regarded by the law as a member of the society, not as a part of the irrational creation; as a moral person, not as a mere article of property. > – James Madison, Federalist, no. 54 > > American citizens are instrumental in carrying on a traffic in enslaved Africans, equally in violation of the laws of humanity and in defiance of those of their own country. The same just and benevolent motives which produced interdiction in force against this criminal conduct will doubtless be felt by Congress in devising further means of suppressing the evil. > – James Madison, State of the Union,1810 > > It is due to justice; due to humanity; due to truth; due to the sympathies of our nature; in fine, to our character as a people, both abroad and at home, that they should be considered, as much as possible, in the light of human beings, and not as mere property. As such, they are acted on by our laws, and have an interest in our laws. They may be considered as making a part, though a degraded part, of the families to which they belong. > – James Madison, Speech in the Virginia State Convention of 1829-30, on the Question of the Ratio of Representation in the two Branches of the Legislature, December 2, 1829. > > Outlets for the freed blacks are alone wanted for the erasure of the blot from our Republican character. > – James Madison, Letter to General La Fayette, February 1, 1830. > > \*f slavery, as a national evil, is to be abolished, and it be just that it be done at the national expense, the amount of the expense is not a paramount consideration. > – James Madison, Letter to Robert J. Evans > > In contemplating the pecuniary resources needed for the removal of such a number to so great a distance [freed slaves to Africa], my thoughts and hopes have long been turned to the rich fund presented in the western lands of the nation . . ." > – James Madison, Letter to R. R. Gurley, December 28, 1831. This is a great find. One of the principles of our Founding Fathers was to end slavery. This was at a time, in the 18th century, when the slave trade filled up the entire Atlantic ocean. Our Fathers bucked the trend and spoke for liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/566 "2010-05-07T21:56:41Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > So your argument is that they are popular, therefore they can’t do wrong? No, that’s your argument. My argument is that the Founding Fathers are popular men of wisdom. Ron Paul undertsands that. You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/567 "2010-05-07T21:58:14Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > No, James Monroe. Well, Lincoln was very humane in putting down a rebellion so I figured you’d like him, too. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/568 "2010-05-07T21:59:20Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > This is a great find. Quick, forward it along to the branch that’s being paid to post about the Founding Fathers! > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > One of the principles of our Founding Fathers was to end slavery. Which they implemented by buying more slaves or prohibiting those who they already had from gaining freedom, all while not abolishing slavery by law. But, they really were totally against it. New slogan- “Ron Paul: the Founding Fathers didn’t buy that many slaves, vote for Ron!” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/569 "2010-05-07T22:00:33Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > No, that’s your argument. > > My argument is that the Founding Fathers are popular men of wisdom. Ron Paul undertsands that. You don’t. Then the Founding Fathers should run for president instead of Ron Paul - being both wise and popular, they’d win in a landslide! Also some of them owned slaves, so owning slaves is a wise and popular thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/570 "2010-05-07T22:04:47Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Why, exactly are liberals so opposed to the only system of economics that lifts people out of poverty? Liberals are evil. That was established back on page 27 of the Constitution. I wouldn’t expect the others here to understand. They’re just a bunch of globalists, collectivists and central bankers (I’m looking at _you_, **Finn** ). [QUOTE=Galileo Galilei] My argument is that the Founding Fathers are popular men of wisdom. [/QUOTE] Why is it that I’m suddenly thirsty for beer? 😕 > [@FinnAgain](#): > > New slogan- > “Ron Paul: the Founding Fathers didn’t buy that many slaves, vote for Ron!” “…vote for Ron, who didn’t make that many racist statements!” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/571 "2010-05-07T22:07:22Z")
“Ron Paul: George Washington supported ending slavery, except when he sent weapons to help keep the slaves in Haiti enslaved. Vote for Ron!” “Ron Paul: George Washington signed the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793. Vote for Ron!” “Ron Paul: George Washington signed the Naturalization Act of 1790, preventing freed blacks from becoming American citizens. Vote for Ron!” I think you guys are really on to something here. Please convince Ron to use any of the above, you don’t even have to give me credit. (P.S. Jack, I’m really not a Central Banker, I’m more of a Peripheral Banker. The Central Bankers’ job is to oppose Liberty, but my job is just to oppose America.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/572 "2010-05-07T22:12:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Ron Paul: George Washington supported ending slavery, except when he sent weapons to help keep the slaves in Haiti enslaved. Vote for Ron!” > > “Ron Paul: George Washington signed the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793. Vote for Ron!” > > “Ron Paul: George Washington signed the Naturalization Act of 1790, preventing freed blacks from becoming American citizens. Vote for Ron!” > > I think you guys are really on to something here. Please convince Ron to use any of the above, you don’t even have to give me credit. Ron Paul understands that these were the acts of a popular and wise man. You don’t. (What’s wrong with you?) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/573 "2010-05-07T22:15:40Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > (What’s wrong with you?) > [@FinnAgain](#): > > my job is […]to oppose America.) See? ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/574 "2010-05-07T22:21:19Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Well, Lincoln was very humane in putting down a rebellion so I figured you’d like him, too. Lincoln killed 600,000 people. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/575 "2010-05-07T22:26:28Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Lincoln killed 600,000 people. Please tell me that Ron Paul understands that Lincoln inhumanely killed 600,000 people. Please tell me that’s his new slogan. _Please_. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/576 "2010-05-07T22:45:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Ron Paul understands that these were the acts of a popular and wise man. You don’t. (What’s wrong with you?) The Naturalization Act of 1790 let Catholics and Jews become citizens, long before people in northern Europe had this priviledge. And it let protestants and Jews from southern Europe become citizens as well. Nor did it prevent blacks from becoming citizens as you imply. The Act let foreigners come here and work for only two years before they could become citizens. This was a great deal bacause in Europe you were a subject, not a citizen. You simply have a negative view of the world. Whenever someone does something good that benefits people, you just snarl and nitpick. Black people today have a much better standard of living than those today in Africa, thanks to the libertarian views of our Founding Fathers. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/577 "2010-05-07T22:48:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Please tell me that Ron Paul understands that Lincoln inhumanely killed 600,000 people. Please tell me that’s his new slogan. _Please_. Ron Paul is already on record of being against the civil war. He says the slaves should have been freed prior to the civil war, unlike the Lincoln fans. He said it would have been cheaper to buy the slaves freedom rather than to fight a war over it. He said this on Meet the Press with Tim Russert. I take it you favor war over peacful negotiation. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/578 "2010-05-07T22:50:11Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You simply have a negative view of the world. Whenever someone does something good that benefits people, you just snarl and nitpick. No, it’s the view that hero-worship is irrational, regardless of who the object of it is. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/579 "2010-05-07T23:02:10Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Ron Paul is already on record of being against the civil war. He says the slaves should have been freed prior to the civil war, unlike the Lincoln fans. He said it would have been cheaper to buy the slaves freedom rather than to fight a war over it. He said this on Meet the Press with Tim Russert. I take it you favor war over peacful negotiation. Oh, absolutely! I like teh killing. War is awesome! Also, all “Lincoln fans” really are glad that the slaves weren’t freed until the civil war. In fact, it depresses them that the slaves are freed _now_. Because everyone who likes Lincoln supports slavery. It’s true! And if it was said on Meet the Press with Tim Russert, it _must_ be true. Though clearly _the south_ disagreed - they considered the price of freeing their slaves less than the cost of a war to prevent it. > [@acsenray](#): > > No, it’s the view that hero-worship is irrational, regardless of who the object of it is. It’s actually not that hero-worship is irrational - in moderate qualtities it’s perfectly fine. (In fact, it would be entirely rationaly for you all to worship me right now.) The thing that’s irrational is when you swerve into irrationality to _defend_ your heroes. I can think that Washington was pretty cool despite having owned slaves; child of the times, fallible, all that. But when I start accusing reality of slandering him, that’s not cool; that’s _kool-aid_. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/580 "2010-05-07T23:05:23Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > “There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it.” > – George Washington, letter to Robert Morris, April 12, 1786 > [@](#): > > Washington periodically sold slaves to maintain a sound ratio of productive and nonproductive workers… [and] also sold off the troublemakers and the unruly and lazy blacks, and he used the fear of being sold as a powerful threat in helping to enforce discipline. . . . [link](http://books.google.com/books?id=4YX3czE0SGYC&pg=PA227&dq=Corporal+Punishment+Slaves+Washington#v=onepage&q=Corporal%20Punishment%20Slaves%20Washington&f=false) But the slaves were not of his kind, so it wasn’t nearly as bad as those African slave traders, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=30)