# The best candidate to challenge Barack Obama in 2012 is Ron Paul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114 "2010-05-03T03:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/621 "2010-05-08T05:25:40Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Historical fact - Madison could not have, as the Treaty of Ghent was already signed by the time of the Battle of New Orleans. Not ratifed yet. Word of Jackson’s victory arrived the day before word of Ghent arrived. > [@](#): > > I’ll add at this point that I had no idea that Madison founded the Illuminati. I would also like to note, if I can stop laughing long enough to type it out, that the concept that Washington or Jefferson or Jackson were puppets of anyone may be among the most ludicrous thoughts that I have ever read on this board. James Madison was a one-man walking NWO from 1780 until 1836. He was the brains behind the operation. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/622 "2010-05-08T05:29:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Ron Paul: the Founding Fathers were puppets of James Madison. Vote for Ron!” bump! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/623 "2010-05-08T05:29:32Z")
Well it WAS the _New World_ Order. But I don’t think that means what you think it means. And I agree the idea of Jefferson being anyone’s puppet is very silly. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/624 "2010-05-08T05:31:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > How in the name of God’s green earth can George III be a traitor? Treason is waging war against the Crown. George _was_ the Crown. > This thread is just bizarre. Read the DoI. George III was a traitor toEnglish liberties. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/625 "2010-05-08T05:34:33Z")
I don’t think you quite grok the concept of “being the king”. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/626 "2010-05-08T05:35:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And yet Great Britain and many other countries banned slavery before the U.S. Go figure, I guess. Most of the US States banned slavery before Britain did. And Britain continued to exploit for 100 years via a world empire, even after overt slavery was ended. The US added **states**. The British added **provinces**. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/627 "2010-05-08T05:42:19Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > The whole buying slave owners out instead of having a war is gone over in the other thread I linked to earlier. > > But to sum up what I’m positive **Galileo Galilei** ’s responses will be: > > He’ll think they should have receivied fair compensation. (Mississippi at the time said that this was $1000 a slave) > It was already illegal to import new slaves so expect a comment about how if you had only read DiLorenzo you’d know that. > > What he won’t bring up will be that even at $100 a slave it exceeded the 1860 Federal Budget by a factor of 5. He will not explain how this money was going to be produced or where it will come from. He will not mention whether we’d still have a Freedmen’s Bureau or the Civil Right’s Act of 1866, even though without those the “just shy of slavery” Black Codes would have gone into effect. He won’t mention Reconstruction, its necessity in bringing the South into the Industrial Age, or how it would have happened with a buyout. I believe the standard strategy is to all but deny Reconstruction ever happened anyway. Frederick Douglass supported a plan that would let free slavbes move to Florida. The root problem was that James Madison had a finite lifespan, and was unable to solve every problem before his death. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/628 "2010-05-08T05:45:28Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Most of the US States banned slavery before Britain did. But the United States _didn’t_. Importation of slaves ended in 1808, but by then there were so many it was not necessary. By 1860, slavery had been banned in Britain for around 30 years, and there were 4 million slaves in the U.S. That’s not to take away from British colonialism and its disastrous effects on the world, but that’s another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/629 "2010-05-08T06:00:18Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > Don’t ask me to defend it. I’m aware it wouldn’t have worked. It’s Ron Paul who’s confused. > > I’m not sure you could have used it to just slowly get rid of slaves and somehow never quite make it all the way. My impression was that they think the US Army should have knocked on your door, declared “eminent domain” on your slaves and cut you a check, and then gone to your neighbor’s. > > Of course thats what the South was afraid of happening in the first place. I’m still unclear on how making the South’s fears come true would have stopped them from leaving due to fear of the government taking their slaves. > > Honestly, Madison should have fixed all this back in 1812, if not when he singlehandedly wrote the Constitution. If he hadn’t been such a racist ass he could’ve prevented this whole mess. Madison’s plan was to annex Canada and add at least 2 new States (upper Canda, lower Canda); and more in the future. This would give the north 4 more Senators, 6 more House members, and 10 more votes in the Electoral College, enough to swing the balance to the free states and end slavery without a civl war before north-south tensions multiplied. He would then use western land to pay for freedom of slaves and send them either west, to Florida (which Madison also wanted to aquire), to Canada, or Liberia. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/630 "2010-05-08T06:03:44Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Madison’s plan was to annex Canada and add at least 2 new States (upper Canda, lower Canda); and more in the future. And yet Ron Paul supporters are up in arms about the idea of a North American Union. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/631 "2010-05-08T06:09:46Z")
Because voting to end slavery would in no way upset the slave holding states. They would have just shrugged and said, “well, if that’s the way the vote goes…” :rolleyes: In any case, you’ve convinced me. James Madison in 2012! If he can’t beat Obama, no one can! But back to the OP, we’ve all pretty much agreed that Ron Paul is not the best candidate then? Although I suppose it’s possible that they’re really the same person via reincarnation (there goes the Religious Right vote) or maybe possesion when Little Ronnie was practicing magic and summoned Madison’s spirit by accident. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/632 "2010-05-08T06:15:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Well it WAS the _New World_ Order. But I don’t think that means what you think it means. And I agree the idea of Jefferson being anyone’s puppet is very silly. When Jefferson was president, ALL of the major decisions were made by Madison. Especially in foreign policy. Jefferson just tinkered around with his pet projects like planning the Lewis & Clark expedition, but even here, Madison was very involved. Madison engineered the Louisiana Purchase, he decided upon the embargo, he decided what to do about impressment, the Chesepeak affair, Barbary Pirates, Napoleon, tariffs, etc. Jefferson was pretty much a vegtable his second term. He never did anything important without asking Madiosn first, and Madison often vetoed his decisions. Madison tried to keep this all secret, but scholars who have studied foreign archives have concluded. “he governed the president.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/633 "2010-05-08T06:18:44Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > When Jefferson was president, ALL of the major decisions were made by Madison. I don’t believe this at all. > [@](#): > > Madison tried to keep this all secret But it’s not. You say James Madison _was a failure?_ I conclude that you hate James Madison. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/634 "2010-05-08T06:22:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And yet Ron Paul supporters are up in arms about the idea of a North American Union. Big differences here. Adding new states that have Senators and votes in the Electoral College is totally different than a treaty. Also, back in the 1800s, people wanted to join the US. Today our government has become a high tax cesspool so I doubt anyone wants to join. Puerto Rico has voted against it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/635 "2010-05-08T06:24:55Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Big differences here. Adding new states that have Senators and votes in the Electoral College is totally different than a treaty. Even though a treaty would be necessary for any of that to happen. > [@](#): > > Also, back in the 1800s, people wanted to join the US. Today our government has become a high tax cesspool so I doubt anyone wants to join. That certainly explains the millions of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/636 "2010-05-08T06:26:06Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Madison tried to keep this all secret, but scholars who have studied foreign archives have concluded. “he governed the president.” What archives are these? Are they available online? Can you at least name which country these archives are in? Is it France? I can’t be truckin’ with anything French. It’s unAmerican. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/637 "2010-05-08T06:29:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t believe this at all. Seek out historians who specialize in Madison; Irving Brant, Robert Rutland, Lance Banning, Drew McCoy, Stuart Leibiger, Ralph Ketcham, the ones who read primary documents. Other historians may be unaware of this. > [@](#): > > But it’s not. You say James Madison _was a failure?_ I conclude that you hate James Madison. Madison was a modest guy, he didn’t brag about what he did. He did leave us a detailed record of his actions and ideas, so we could profit from them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/638 "2010-05-08T06:31:34Z")
I just want to emphasize here the idea that Jefferson - whose jobs prior to becoming president included ambassador, governor, author of the Declaration of Independence, secretary of state, and vice president - didn’t know whether to shit or invent his wristwatch without consulting James Madison. This is what **Galileo Galilei** is asking us to believe this time. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/639 "2010-05-08T06:33:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Even though a treaty would be necessary for any of that to happen. > That certainly explains the millions of immigrants. Adding new states is covered in the Constitution, it is another one of Madison’s ideas. Mexico is still a worse cesspool. There is a difference between an individual wanting to come here, and a region somewhere wanting to be a new State. Although many mexicans come here, I have not heard that Mesixo wants to join the union. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/640 "2010-05-08T06:44:26Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Although many mexicans come here, I have not heard that Mesixo wants to join the union. It doesn’t, but for some reason people of your ilk are petrified of the coming North American Union > [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Seek out historians who specialize in Madison; Irving Brant, Robert Rutland, Lance Banning, Drew McCoy, Stuart Leibiger, Ralph Ketcham, the ones who read primary documents. Other historians may be unaware of this. In other words, Madison has fanboys just like Joss Whedon does. His accomplishments are remarkable (even though I hate the little cocksucker), but your version strains credibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=33)