# The best candidate to challenge Barack Obama in 2012 is Ron Paul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114 "2010-05-03T03:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/721 "2010-05-09T07:38:36Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > If the newsletters were so racist, why did not anyone complain about them back in the 1980s? Huh? They had wide distribution in the 1980s. But no distribution in the past 10 years. Ron Paul didn’t even know about them back then, nor did anyone else. How come you said nothing about the newsletters in the 1980s if they are so bad? Huh? OK, so everybody _except_ Ron Paul is supposed to held responsible for the content of the newsletters with Ron Paul’s name on them? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/722 "2010-05-09T07:39:32Z")
May I suggest (as a poster, not a moderator) that the issue of whether the war on drugs is racist or not be moved to a new thread? It’s an interesting subject, and it would be better served if it weren’t hidden on page 15 of an unrelated thread. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/723 "2010-05-09T16:21:56Z")
Edit: I’d be fine with this being moved to a new thread. > [@waterj2](#): > > but I think you’re going too far in your defense of the War on Drugs. I’m _not_ defending it. Not any more than people who were opposed to Bush II during his presidency were defending him if they said he wasn’t about to invade Iran. I oppose the drug war and just said: "It’s quite possible to oppose the war on drugs for the facts; it doens’t work, it creates a massive criminal class, it removes the recourse to law and guarantees that the rule of force will be the most effective way to control the flow of profit, it criminalizes personal choices made by consenting adults, drug use is a crime with no victim, and so on. " I just think it’s not only inaccurate to call it _racist_, but self-defeating. You’re not going to convince people that the concept of aggressively interdiction and penalization of drug crimes is wrong because it’s “racist” and that, therefore, people who support it are essentially racists. “Support my politics or you’re either a racist or a racist-enabler” just isn’t an effective message. > [@waterj2](#): > > Do you really think that if the crack/cocaine disparity worked in the other direction, the political will to adjust it couldn’t be found? Being unable to hop over to the Universe Next Door I really can’t say. My guess is that as long as the media sensationalized it, it’d be illegal in just the same way it is now. > [@waterj2](#): > > In your job hunt example, if a company’s hiring practices, however fairly designed on paper, showed a disparate impact on the scale that the War on Drugs does, they could be sued Yes, but individual police departments/courts/whatever can be investigated for ethics violations and such. But the claim isn’t that specific groups charged with prosecuting the WoD must be reined in and/or taken to task for shitty behavior, but that the WoD as a whole is racist. Your example of dealing with one specific company for one specific company’s actions rather than calling the entire institution of job hunting racist… demonstrates the _flaw_ in tom’s argument, not the sense behind it. > [@waterj2](#): > > I’m not, and I’m going to go out on the smallest limb ever and say that **tomndebb** isn’t either[…] that ending the War on Drugs is necessary to prevent racism But that’s the natural conclusion to the argument. If the WoD is racist, and if we want to end racism in this country, then in order to end racism in this country we will, sooner or later, have to end the WoD. And, similarly, those who don’t want to end the WoD are supporting the continuation of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/724 "2010-05-09T16:49:29Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > If the newsletters were so racist, why did not anyone complain about them back in the 1980s? Huh They had wide distribution in the 1980s. Somehow I have difficulty believing that newsletters from an obscure Congressman had a “wide distribution”. We’re not talking _Newsweek_ here. > [@](#): > > And if they have a racist message, why repeat it so others can hear the message? Why are you spreading the racist message? Huh? Why is the _New Republic_ spreading a racist message? > > Why is it OK for the \*New Republic \*to print the “racist” messages, but if Ron Paul’s newsletter does the same thing, then it is the crime of the century?? Are you even remotely serious? When a politician advocates sleazy/reprehensible positions, pointing that out is equivalent to espousing the same positions? Apparently we must never reveal what political or religious extremists are saying in order to counteract them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/725 "2010-05-09T18:00:16Z")
“Ron Paul: he feeds on your refutations. Also, souls. Vote for Ron!” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/726 "2010-05-09T18:27:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it doesn’t do that either. It reflects the fact that making drug penalties softer is politically dangerous as it is almost guaranteed to be portrayed by a challenger as “being soft on drugs!”, not to mention that in public perception crack is a demon of a drug and the media sensationalized crack use to the point where the public saw it as a new menace and still hasn’t gotten to the point where they’d accept the concept that “crackhouse” shouldn’t be all that much more of a cause for extreme fear than “opium den”. They could just as easily make the penalties for powder cocaine harsher without appearing soft on drug crime and the very fact that crack is perceived as a “demon drug” is a demonstration of racist thought, as the belief comes from portrayals of black people going instantly mad when using it. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And of course we have both tobacco and alchol as totally legal drugs. This shows that our drug policy _isn’t rational_, not that it’s racist. Drug policy is not the whole of the war of drugs. Rational people know that drug policy is mostly idiotic, but while I would not claim that the war on drugs is inherently and completely racist, denying that it has a racist component is simply denying reality. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/727 "2010-05-09T18:28:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Edit: I’d be fine with this being moved to a new thread. I’d just as soon limit the craziness to as few threads as I have to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/728 "2010-05-09T18:51:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Ron Paul: he feeds on your refutations. Also, souls. Vote for Ron!” He has to, he doesn’t feed on much else. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/729 "2010-05-09T18:53:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > They could just as easily make the penalties for powder cocaine harsher without appearing soft on drug crime I can’t agree. We’d see claims like “he’s hard on drugs except when he’s soft on drugs. Flip flopper, flip flopper!” Nor is the fact that crack is demonized a racist thought pattern by necessity. The media, to my knowledge, never presented as a fact that blacks who use crack go instantly insane but white people can have a dandy time on it. > [@tomndebb](#): > > denying that it has a racist component is simply denying reality. It has no racist component. It is _implemented by some people who are racist._ But that’s a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/730 "2010-05-09T19:13:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It has no racist component. It is _implemented by some people who are racist._ But that’s a different matter. Actually, it appears to be implemented in racist ways by many people who are probably not consciously racist, at all. The Cleveland Plain Dealer, in October, 2008, reported on a program for handling first time drug offenders–a program administered by lawyers and judges, many of whom are prominent civil rights advocates, including several blacks–that routinely dealt more harshly with black offenders than white offenders, based on (apparently) unconscious decisions regarding how the various people charged would respond to the system. Similar cases have been made regarding decisions to target differing ethnic neighborhoods with either federal (more harsh) or state (less harsh) statutes. Claiming that it is merely rogue racists in the system that causes these discrepancies is not supported by the facts. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/731 "2010-05-09T19:21:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Claiming that it is merely rogue racists in the system that causes these discrepancies is not supported by the facts. Even if you have a lot of people behaving badly, it’s still an issue of the _implementation of a program and not the program itself._ Even if the people behaving in a racist manner are direction that racist behavior at their own racial group. Subconscious racism is still racism. Let’s say that Hypotheticatopia had a shall-issue policy for concealed carry, but Clerky McClerk, a black man, just never liked the look in the eyes of any black men who came to him, so he found reasons to disqualify them. Does that mean that concealed carry is a racist policy? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/732 "2010-05-09T19:23:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Subconscious racism is still racism. Glad you agree. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/733 "2010-05-09T19:32:03Z")
I’ve never denied that some people involved in the implementation of the policies were racist. I’ve pointed out that that doesn’t mean that the policies themselves (which we know as the “war on drugs”) are racist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/734 "2010-05-09T19:47:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’ve never denied that some people involved in the implementation of the policies were racist. I’ve pointed out that that doesn’t mean that the policies themselves (which we know as the “war on drugs”) are racist. I see where our misunderstanding lies. You limit the “war on drugs” to the laws that have been enacted. I would say that the “war on drugs” encompasses all the laws, all the departmental policies and procedures, all the propaganda, and all the actions taken in support of the preceding. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/735 "2010-05-09T19:50:51Z")
But as I pointed out earlier, things like unequal sentencing for minorities isn’t limited to drug offenses. Is the “war on crime” also racist, since blacks tend to draw higher sentences for violent crimes with similar circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/736 "2010-05-09T19:57:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > But as I pointed out earlier, things like unequal sentencing for minorities isn’t limited to drug offenses. Is the “war on crime” also racist, since blacks tend to draw higher sentences for violent crimes with similar circumstances? It’s certainly racist in execution if not intention, among its other flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo\_Galilei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Galileo\_Galilei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo_Galilei)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/737 "2010-05-09T23:23:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I know, what with their uber-wide circulation the internet must have been abuzz with news about them. Of course, the actual reason is exactly what I cited, the audience was pretty damn racist and they ate that shit up. The same as when Paul bragged that his best source of campaign contribution was the mailing list for the racist publication, _The Spotlight_. > > [url=[Who Wrote Ron Paul's Newsletters?](http://reason.com/archives/2008/01/16/who-wrote-ron-pauls-newsletter)] > > Yes. Your brother in arms has already argued that Paul’s own words, on Paul’s own website, overstate Paul’s own position. The idea that Paul didn’t know about the newsletters that he started and had named after him, that were edited by his chief of staff and had family on staff is… similar. > > To say nothing of the fact that, as already pointed out, not only did Paul not deny he wrote the racist trash when it was first brought to light, but he defended it both personally and through a spokesman and argued as if he had written it or at the very least, endorsed the ideas contained therein. > > Do you think _this_ tactic is going to strengthen your argument? > “Why oh why are you spreading Ron Paul’s racist message by calling him on the carpet for having a racist message?!?” > > Shall we also not study the Nazis lest we spread the Nazi message? Why oh why are all those Holocaust scholars spreading Nazism!?! > > It’s funny that you’re now attempting to deny that they’re racist. Yeah, saying that the LA riots only ended when it was time for blacks to pick up their welfare checks is not racist, nopers. And pointing out that Paul’s newsletter printed racist things and it’s bad is exactly the same as printing those racist things and saying that they’re good. > > “Ron Paul: twas brilling and the slivey toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe. Vote for Ron!” You’re just talking about the newsletters because you support the racist war on drugs. Ron Paul votes and speaks against the racist war on drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/738 "2010-05-09T23:28:43Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Ron Paul votes and speaks against the racist war on drugs. Unfortunately, his position on the racist war on black people seems a little less clear cut. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/739 "2010-05-10T02:25:15Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > Ron Paul votes and speaks But not both at the same time, unfortunately. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114/740 "2010-05-10T02:31:35Z")
> [@Galileo\_Galilei](#): > > You’re just talking about the newsletters because you support the racist war on drugs. I’ve already said that the war on drugs is a bad policy, please try to say things that are correct and not simple attacks on anybody who doesn’t support Ron in the same manner you do. But good attempt to distract from Ron Paul’s own endorsement and use of vile racism to raise money for his campaigning. Obviously, the only reason someone would bring that up is that they hate black people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-candidate-to-challenge-barack-obama-in-2012-is-ron-paul/538114.md?page=38)