# The best government is that which governs least? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 10, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258 "2021-10-10T15:40:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/41 "2021-10-11T19:13:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It doesn’t count as economic intervention, which is what matters in this discussion. Not your call to make. The quote does not imply such a thing, and such a restriction was never brought up by those I have heard utter the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/42 "2021-10-11T20:33:55Z")
Sorry, I just missed that. So, okay… In terms of economic regulation, Hong King probably had ‘the government that governs least’ from 1961 to 1997, and it also had the most dramatic increase in GDP and per capita income over that time. In general, economic performance correlates to smaller government. Canada under-performed the U.S when we had higher taxes, spending and debt, and once we corrected for that we began to out-perform the U.S. Europe has higher regulations and taxes than North America, and a significantly lower standard of living. New Zealand had large government and heavy industrial subsidies, and nearly went bankrupt. Free market reforms turned it around. The same thing happened in Scandinavia and in Asia, where moving away from heavy government control and high taxes sparked a massive increase in the standard of living in many places. Are there examples of countries where government took more control, raised taxes and regulations - and things improved? Maybe there are, but I can’t think of one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/43 "2021-10-11T21:08:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Europe has higher regulations and taxes than North America, and a significantly lower standard of living. ?? I suppose it depends on how you estimate “standard of living”. The US [ranks about 20th in “Quality of Life” scores](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-rankings), with the much-more-socialist Canada and Scandinavian countries taking the top spots. Certainly the middle-class Europeans I know tend to feel that their universal healthcare, better medical outcomes, worker rights protections, ample vacations, environmental protections, parental leave and childcare policies, quality education, low-cost higher education, gun regulations, etc., make their standard of living far more desirable than that of their American counterparts. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The same thing happened in Scandinavia […] where moving away from heavy government control and high taxes sparked a massive increase in the standard of living in many places. ? Scandinavia’s part of Europe, right? > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Are there examples of countries where government took more control, raised taxes and regulations - and things improved? Sure: pretty much all the developed nations post-Industrial Revolution, for example. The introduction of measures like the eight-hour day, worker and environmental protections, housing regulations, etc., did a huge amount to make life better for immiserated workers. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/44 "2021-10-11T21:20:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Canada under-performed the U.S when we had higher taxes, spending and debt According to [this analysis](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/07/canadians-may-pay-more-taxes-than-americans-but-theres-a-catch.html), Canada has more or less the same tax rates as the US: > [@](#): > > The OECD analyzes [the tax burdens of 35 countries](http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/revenue-statistics_19963726), including the United States and Canada. According to its [data](https://data.oecd.org/chart/4TZt), in terms of total tax revenue as a percentage of GDP, in 2010, the U.S. collected a slightly lower than average amount of taxes from its citizens ($11,365 USD per capita). Canada collected a slightly higher than average amount ($14,693 USD). > > The average for OECD countries was $12,911 USD. > > That [total tax revenue figure](https://data.oecd.org/chart/4TZo) includes not merely federal income taxes, but all taxes, including “taxes on income and profits, social security contributions, taxes levied on goods and services, payroll taxes, taxes on the ownership and transfer of property, and other taxes.” […] > > At times, for example, in 2000 and again in 2014, Canada and the U.S. swapped places. The U.S. paid a slightly higher than average amount and Canada paid a slightly lower than average amount. For the most part, however, both countries hover around the OECD average. > > And both remain far lower than [high-tax countries such as Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark Switzerland and Sweden](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/09/the-happiest-countries-in-the-world-also-pay-a-lot-in-taxes.html). […] > > Canadians may not pay that much more than Americans — and, on occasion, as a nation, they have even paid less — but they do get a lot more from their government in terms of social services. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/45 "2021-10-11T21:34:12Z")
@Kimstu got ahead of me, other measurements show that many countries in the EU are ahead or close to the US in the standards of living. Countries with a better safety net and more taxes to pay for it. [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country) Not sure if it was directed at Sam a long time a go, but as I pointed at him or other conservative veteran of the SDMB, I’m waiting already for decades to see those countries to suffer economical disasters because they treat their citizens better. IIRC, several have problems yes, but as the standard of living shows, Chomsky was right, how the elites (that still control a lot of our government) in the US treat the less wealthy is a travesty when compared to most developed nations. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/46 "2021-10-11T21:54:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I’m waiting already for decades to see those countries to suffer economical disasters because they treat their citizens better. Yeah, I think the libertarian arguments on this tend to be very one-sided. They justifiably point out the problems with super-socialist setups where command economies and excessive government interference really degrade quality of life, but they blithely ignore situations in capitalism where underregulation and too much laissez-faire also produce really shit outcomes. They aren’t able to advocate for a rational middle ground because the propaganda always has to be pushing for reducing taxes, decreasing regulation, and reducing government control. No matter where you are on the economic spectrum, the a priori assumption for them is always that “reducing government” will improve your situation while “increasing government” will make it worse. They tend to finesse this by focusing on outcomes for the relatively wealthy, who are generally the greatest beneficiaries of laissez-faire government systems. So, while liberals can readily admit that command economies suck and that tax rates and regulatory control can sometimes be too high and market-liberalizing economic reforms can sometimes be beneficial, libertarians tend to be ideologically debarred from acknowledging that more regulation or higher taxes can ever be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/47 "2021-10-12T00:12:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > During the 2008 crisis, Canada adopted the least interventionist strategy and had one of the smallest ‘stimulus’ packages as a percentage of GDP - I think about half of whatnthe U.S.'s was. And we came out of the recession with one of the strongest economies. This is a really silly comparison. Canada didn’t have the housing bubble that the US had, and didn’t have the fraudulent loan problems that the US had. That’s because the Canadian OSFI kept a much tighter rein on Canadian banks than the US did. Companies like Countrywide, Bear Stearns, and Lehman Brothers just didn’t exist up there. OSFI is a much heavier handed regulator than the Fed for most regulatory areas. And, since there are only 6 banks in Canada, each one is systemically important, so OSFI is all over them. The US has thousands of banks, and many of them were hurt by the bursting of the housing bubble. The whole mortgage system in Canada is completely different than the one in the US, so while housing bubbles are certainly possible, there are more controls that would make it difficult. Anyway, the different performance of the two economies was certainly not from a more hands-off approach in Canada. To the OP, since “least” is an absolute, it sounds like the speaker is advocating for the smallest, least effective government possible. So, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258/48 "2021-10-12T01:27:35Z")
I hate to keep harping on the turn of the 20th century, but people of the least government ilk do point to the era as one of incredible innovation, massive economic advances, successful incorporation of a huge population influx, growth of cities, and the rise of America as a world economic power, therefore reasons why government should be kept out of the way of business. This argument can only be made if one ignores the massive government _assistance_ I pointed out earlier, stupendous amounts of racism, classism, and sexism, the epic large city slums, gigantic exploitation of labor, and environmental disasters that we are still trying to cope with. You know, incidentals. Any modern-day least government arguments must also ignore the externalities such behavior would create. And do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-government-is-that-which-governs-least/952258.md?page=2)