# The Best Nation on Earth... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958 "2009-07-23T03:09:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/21 "2009-07-23T04:37:45Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Gotta point out that Swedes are not only free to move around, settle, work, study, etc anywhere in Sweden, but that - like all EU nationals - they are free to do this throughout the EU, which has a larger population, and is much more culturally diverse, than the US. If your criterion for “best” is the freedom to go and live somewhere that is unlike where you currently are, you definitely want to be an EU national. I said it’s hard to get a new apartment in Sweden. I didn’t say that there were restrictions on movement. In America it’s not difficult to get a new apartment. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/22 "2009-07-23T04:39:09Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Have to back this up. Yes, the US gives you a greater variety of places to move to than _most_ countries in the world, but if we’re looking for the top of the list..? Not even close. So what makes European countries great is the ability to move out of them then? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/23 "2009-07-23T04:40:58Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Objection! Belgium is more Luxembourgish than Luxembourg. Unfortunately, it’s full of Belgians, which lowers the rating somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/24 "2009-07-23T04:47:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > If you’re counting the whole EU as one country then you should count “European” as one culture, in which case I do not think they are as culturally diverse as us. I’m not counting the EU as one country; I’m counting, e.g., Sweden as one country. But Swedish citizenship confers upon you a far wider right to travel, settle, work, study, etc elsewhere than does U.S. citizenship. (And, FWIW, I wouild find it very hard to argue that the Unites States is more culturally diverse than the EU. If you wished to live in a place within the US which was “foreign” to you, in the sense of having a dominant language [theatre, cinema, newspapers, television, literature] whcih was not the langauge of the place you currently live, how many different options would you have?) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/25 "2009-07-23T04:50:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So what makes European countries great is the ability to move out of them then? The ability to move somewhere different from where you are was your criterion, not ours. If that is your criterion, the you should prefer any EU nationalilty to US nationality. (Though, yes, the freedom to leave your country if you choose to is an important liberty.) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/26 "2009-07-23T04:51:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I said it’s hard to get a new apartment in Sweden. I didn’t say that there were restrictions on movement. In America it’s not difficult to get a new apartment. So “affordable housing” is your overriding criterion for the best nation on earth? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/27 "2009-07-23T05:19:06Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Excuse me? How 'bout pleasant weather? You have nothing that compares to Arizona, California, or Florida. You can have the sweltering heat of Arizona, the wild fires of California, and the hurricanes of Florida. > [@](#): > > You might argue that Vancouver comes close (it really doesn’t) but it’s also one of your most expensive if not your most expensive large city. You have no city even half as large as New York. I have no desire to live in a large city. If I did, and larger is better, then I would want to move to Mexico. Mexico city. > [@](#): > > You have no desert. Yes we do. In fact, a few minutes by boat will take me to a little island that has a microclimate classified as a desert complete with cacti. > [@](#): > > You have very little surfing and nothing that approaches a tropical beach. I live on Vancouver Island. A two minute walk to the beach. The whole island is chock full of beaches and we have surfing going on the west coast. Furthermore, I’m 25 minutes away by car from strapping on my downhill skis. I’m ten minutes away from getting into my boat to fish for salmon, ling cod or prawns. I’m ecstatic about the choice I made as to where I live. Are you ? > [@](#): > > The US is geographically, culturally, and economically diverse to a greater extent than any other nation I can think of\*. I’ll give you geographically diverse, but I’m pretty sure we are more culturally diverse. We encourage and pride ourselves in multiculturalism and have two official languages while you tout the melting pot . As for economically diverse, I’ll give you that too. You have more richer and rich people as well as more poor and poorer people. I don’t really think that that is really anything to brag about. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/28 "2009-07-23T05:27:23Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Excuse me? How 'bout pleasant weather? You have nothing that compares to Arizona, California, or Florida. You might argue that Vancouver comes close (it really doesn’t) but it’s also one of your most expensive if not your most expensive large city. You have no city even half as large as New York. You have no desert. You have very little surfing and nothing that approaches a tropical beach. > > The US is geographically, culturally, and economically diverse to a greater extent than any other nation I can think of\*. We’re not perfect, and I’m sure I personally could be just as happy in any number of other countries, but any objective measure of “best”, for the most people, has to put the US on top. > > \*I think Brazil might be more ethnically diverse than us but I can’t think of any other large countries that are. You have no idea about Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/29 "2009-07-23T05:27:52Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > If you’re counting the whole EU as one country then you should count “European” as one culture, in which case I do not think they are as culturally diverse as us. The EU kind of is one country, on a lot of levels. Same passport, no border controls, same rotating EU president, mostly the same currency…sounds like the early stages of a country to me. The language and historical differences slow the processes. But for the purposes of this discussion, if you are born an E.U. citizen, practically the whole continent is your field for work, study, etc. (IF, of course, you can sufficiently master another language, which, again, does trip things up.) I can’t at all see where you’re coming from with the assertion that the EU is not as culturally diverse as the US. Do you seriously think that the cultural differences between Romanians, Latvians, Spaniards, Dutch, etc. are lesser than that between people from different parts of the U.S.? Yes, there is a big difference between people from Alabama and people from Hawaii. But it’s nothing compared to the different between Poles and Portuguese. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/30 "2009-07-23T05:31:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > (And, FWIW, I wouild find it very hard to argue that the Unites States is more culturally diverse than the EU. If you wished to live in a place within the US which was “foreign” to you, in the sense of having a dominant language [theatre, cinema, newspapers, television, literature] whcih was not the langauge of the place you currently live, how many different options would you have?) We have hispanic areas all over the southwest, Caribbean culture in the extreme southeast, Asian areas all over the northwest, and everything you could imagine in New York. And that’s not to mention all the diverse and varied subcultures that fall under “white American.” A Minnesota farmer is a very different person than an LA businessman. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You can have the sweltering heat of Arizona, the wild fires of California, and the hurricanes of Florida. > I have no desire to live in a large city. If I did, and larger is better, then I would want to move to Mexico. Mexico city. So “there isn’t an option available to you in the US that I don’t have in Canada” until someone names several, then they suck and you don’t want them. Gotcha. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m ecstatic about the choice I made as to where I live. Are you ? I don’t see how this is relevant beyond a little dickwaving, but yes, I love Arizona. I would stay here even if I won powerball (though I admit I would summer elsewhere :p.) > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’ll give you geographically diverse, but I’m pretty sure we are more culturally diverse. We encourage and pride ourselves in multiculturalism and have two official languages while you tout the melting pot . Canada is ~85% white while the US is ~65%, and I’m pretty sure we have more Spanish-speakers than you have French-speakers. \ We have more Spanish-speakers than you have _people._ ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/31 "2009-07-23T05:32:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > The US is geographically, **culturally** , and economically diverse to a greater extent than any other nation I can think of\*. Are you serious? Because that’s insane. The US is a mostly homogenous country with various sprinklings of minority ethnicities and immigrant groups, just like a whole bunch of other countries. In terms of cultural diversity, the US is nothing even remotely special. You want cultural diversity, try India or Russia. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/32 "2009-07-23T05:33:53Z")
Forgot to add it was 98 degrees in my kitchen this evening, and check out Alberta for deserts. I’m on Vancouver Island. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/33 "2009-07-23T05:36:03Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > So “affordable housing” is your overriding criterion for the best nation on earth? I didn’t say affordable housing. It is precisely because Sweden makes restrictions on the housing market that makes it difficult to move around. It’s their egalitarian housing laws that cause this problem. > [@](#): > > The ability to move somewhere different from where you are was your criterion, not ours. If that is your criterion, the you should prefer any EU nationalilty to US nationality. > > (Though, yes, the freedom to leave your country if you choose to is an important liberty.) No actually my criterion was the ability to move around within the country and having a wide variety of choices regarding the type of local lifestyle you’d like to choose from, whether it’s living on the beach in Kawai, Snow Mobiling in Alaska, Working on an oil field in West Texas, living on a hippy commune in Tennessee or Clubbing in New York City. It is the diversity of options and the ease with which one can seek the option they prefer that makes America great. That and Americans have some of the greatest freedom to move to other countries in the world of any nation on Earth. Not greater than Europeans certainly, but the options within America are greater than any European nation. The ability to move OUT of a nation is an important liberty certainly, but you can’t consider living on the beach in Italy a perk of living in Sweden because Italy isn’t in Sweden. It might be a perk of BEING Swedish, but it’s not a perk of living there. Also, Americans can without too much trouble move to Italy as well. Teaching English will get you a job pretty much anywhere in the far east you could wish to live. As for Canada. Do they have mechanized riding spiders? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/34 "2009-07-23T05:37:05Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > Forgot to add it was 98 degrees in my kitchen this evening, and check out Alberta for deserts. I’m on Vancouver Island. How are the wild pineapples on your island surfing paradises? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/35 "2009-07-23T05:42:03Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I have no desire to live in a large city. If I did, and larger is better, then I would want to move to Mexico. Mexico city. Mexico City is not actually bigger than New York City if you count the metro area. New York City is one of the biggest in the world by urban agglomeration. Mexico City is a bigger city based on urban jurisdictional lines of distinction, but not by actual contiguous metro area. Yes we do. In fact, a few minutes by boat will take me to a little island that has a microclimate classified as a desert complete with cacti. > [@](#): > > I live on Vancouver Island. A two minute walk to the beach. The whole island is chock full of beaches and we have surfing going on the west coast. Furthermore, I’m 25 minutes away by car from strapping on my downhill skis. I’m ten minutes away from getting into my boat to fish for salmon, ling cod or prawns. Can you live there in a tent for free in January like people do in Kawai? > [@](#): > > I’m ecstatic about the choice I made as to where I live. Are you ? Actually I’m tired of New York I’d rather go live on the beach or in the woods. Either New Mexico or Puerto Rico or Wyoming, all in the US. 😉 > [@](#): > > I’ll give you geographically diverse, but I’m pretty sure we are more culturally diverse. We encourage and pride ourselves in multiculturalism and have two official languages while you tout the melting pot . I’m pretty sure you don’t at 10% of our population. It’s statistically impossible for your culture to be more diverse. It is more culturally diverse within a 15 mile radius of me than it is in your entire country and there are more people too. > [@](#): > > As for economically diverse, I’ll give you that too. You have more richer and rich people as well as more poor and poorer people. I don’t really think that that is really anything to brag about. I’ll give you that one. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/36 "2009-07-23T05:45:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That and Americans have some of the greatest freedom to move to other countries in the world of any nation on Earth. Not greater than Europeans certainly, but the options within America are greater than any European nation. The ability to move OUT of a nation is an important liberty certainly, but you can’t consider living on the beach in Italy a perk of living in Sweden because Italy isn’t in Sweden. It might be a perk of BEING Swedish, but it’s not a perk of living there. Irrelevant if you think of the European Union as one big quasi-country. > [@](#): > > Also, Americans can without too much trouble move to Italy as well. Teaching English will get you a job pretty much anywhere in the far east you could wish to live. Not true at all - unfortunately. The part about getting a job in Asia is true enough, but it is _extremely_ difficult to move to Italy - or any EU country - as an American. Where do you get that it is “not too much trouble” to move there? Check out the regulations for various EU countries at [http://workpermit.com](http://workpermit.com). Actually, that is something I’d put in America’s column: as complex as the US’s immigration system is, we have that wonderful green card immigration lottery open to people around the world. And you don’t even have to be a computer programmer to qualify! Other countries should follow suit. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/37 "2009-07-23T05:46:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How are the wild pineapples on your island surfing paradises? How are the wild salmon in your rain forest? I know both Canada and the US have lots of great things to offer. My complaint is with people saying things like “you have no desert” when we do. At least know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/38 "2009-07-23T05:50:02Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > We encourage and pride ourselves in multiculturalism and have two official languages while you tout the melting pot. You mean, then, that you encourage biculturalism. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that…) While you have your two lovely official languages, we have none – preferring to let people express themselves as they wish. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/39 "2009-07-23T05:50:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’m pretty sure you don’t at 10% of our population. It’s statistically impossible for your culture to be more diverse. It is more culturally diverse within a 15 mile radius of me than it is in your entire country and there are more people too. What does overall population size have to do with diversity? Diversity is usually measured in the percentage breakup of a population, not by the size of a population, no? Or am I missing something? …Not that I’m particularly defending Canada’s claim to greater cultural diversity… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958/40 "2009-07-23T06:00:02Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > How are the wild salmon in your rain forest? There aren’t any wild salmon in the Rain Forests of New Mexico, but I hear they are pretty damned spectacular in Washington. > [@](#): > > I know both Canada and the US have lots of great things to offer. My complaint is with people saying things like “you have no desert” when we do. At least know what you’re talking about. I never claimed it didn’t, that was someone else. But a microclimate isn’t quite the same as what stretches from Texas to California. > [@Rodgers01](#): > > What does overall population size have to do with diversity? Diversity is usually measured in the percentage breakup of a population, not by the size of a population, no? Or am I missing something? > > …Not that I’m particularly defending Canada’s claim to greater cultural diversity… I am thinking of it in terms of the sheer number of ethnic cultures on display. I seriously doubt that Canada has any ethnic populations the US doesn’t have. Also, in the US there are generally far more individuals of those ethnic populations. The city I live in has a population roughly equivalent to Canada’s in the metro area and just Queens alone is the most ethnically diverse urban area on the entire planet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-nation-on-earth/503958.md?page=3)