# The best quarterback ever. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 20, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849 "2013-01-20T23:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/21 "2013-01-21T13:42:43Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > If championships are the criteria, then it’s Otto Graham. He went to 10 league championships in a row (every year during his career) and won 7 of them. Now 4 of those were AAFC, which is a legitimate knock. But the NFL thought the AAFC was a weaker league, just like they thought of the AFL. > > The Browns had dominated the AAFC for its entire existance, but when the NFL absorbed the Browns, Colts, and 49ers from it, they thought that they were going to welcome them to the big leagues now and show them how the real men played football. So they put up the 1949 AAFC champion Cleveland Browns against the 1949 NFL Champion Philadelphia Eagles fully expecting the Eagles to blow the Browns out, like an NFL team facing an XFL team or something. > > The Browns kicked the shit out of the Eagles to stun the rest of the league, and then proceeded to kick the shit out of the rest of the league and win the 1950 NFL championship. As far as I’m aware, nothing like that has ever happened before or after in sports history - a major league absorbs a more minor league and one of the minor league teams dominates the major league. > > So then it’s true that Otto’s first 4 championships weren’t NFL championships, but based on how much the 50s Browns kicked the shit out of the rest of the league, it’s likely they would’ve been had they been in the NFL in that time period. So after 4 straight AAFC championships and an nfl championship, he went to the NFL championship 5 more times in a row, winning twice more. > > It’s a record that’s unlikely ever to be matched. In addition, he was a revolutionary quarterback, essentially the first quarterback of a modern passing offense which was being invented by him and Paul Brown. His career 86.6 rating compares favorably for the next 50 years - it isn’t until the last decade or so of ridiculous lax pass defense rules that players are routinely doing better. > > So if you could calculate some sort of adjustment factor - considering that Graham played in an era where there was no protection for quarterbacks and receivers could be absolutely mugged on every play - he’d probably have the highest career rating ever. He was way ahead of his contemporaries. Interesting stuff. Makes a very strong argument for Graham. Reading more about him now. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/22 "2013-01-21T15:22:27Z")
I grew up thinking Roger Staubach was the best ever. My vote would be for him. He left football for a tour in Vietnam, then returned to play for Dallas. I respect that. ---
**Author:** ![zoog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7ea924/32.png) [@zoog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/23 "2013-01-21T15:42:43Z")
It’s really hard in a sport like football, which is so reliant on teamwork, to single out any one guy at any position as “the best ever”, because all things are inherently unequal. We can play “what if” games all day long. That said… One of the criteria I always use when I’m comparing QB’s is this: if my team has a 4 point lead in a big game and has to kick off to the other team with two minutes left in the game, who would I most dread seeing on the other sideline? To my thinking, by far that guy would have to be Joe Montana. There were a lot of guys who were dangerous as hell - Elway, Brady, both Mannings come to mind - but it almost seemed inevitable that Montana was going to find a way to get that win in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/24 "2013-01-21T15:43:54Z")
I know this will be rejected almost right away because of the NFL bias here, but there is a case to be made for [Anthony Calvillo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Calvillo). 78,494 yards, 3 championships, 3 MVP awards numerous all-star selections, all that and a 95.9 rating over an 18 year career. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/25 "2013-01-21T16:38:13Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I know this will be rejected almost right away because of the NFL bias here, but there is a case to be made for [Anthony Calvillo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Calvillo). 78,494 yards, 3 championships, 3 MVP awards numerous all-star selections, all that and a 95.9 rating over an 18 year career. If he were good enough he’d been playing in the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/26 "2013-01-21T17:05:56Z")
FWIW, here’s a guy at Pro Football Reference who tried to determine and rank [career value](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/av_career.htm) for all NFL players. His pick is Favre or [Peyton Manning](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/career_av_career.htm), depending on which of his metrics you use. I have not gone to the effort of compiling it, but my SWAG is that Tom Brady is the top QB according to Football Outsiders’s DYAR and DVOA metrics. Of course, their database only goes back to, IIRC, [1991](http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#dvoa). For my pick for the OP, I was trying to remember who was the early QB who revolutionized the game, and couldn’t remember Graham’s name. **Beef** makes some great arguments for him. The game’s so different these days, that it’s hard to compare apples to apples though. I like Marino more than either Montana or Elway, FWIW, and Marino’s supporting cast was much worse than either of theirs. I think he’d get killed in today’s NFL though, even with the much more lax rules for WRs and the incredible crackdown on physical LB/DB play over the middle: just too immobile in the pocket to avoid the rush. All IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/27 "2013-01-21T17:36:50Z")
Graham’s regular season starter record is 105-17-4 BTW. I don’t know if any other QB in history has an 83% win rate (or just a 13.4% losing rate). Of course, that’s a team thing, not just a QB stat, but it’s impressive nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/28 "2013-01-21T17:47:47Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > FWIW, here’s a guy at Pro Football Reference who tried to determine and rank [career value](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/av_career.htm) for all NFL players. His pick is Favre or [Peyton Manning](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/career_av_career.htm), depending on which of his metrics you use. > > I have not gone to the effort of compiling it, but my SWAG is that Tom Brady is the top QB according to Football Outsiders’s DYAR and DVOA metrics. Of course, their database only goes back to, IIRC, [1991](http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#dvoa). > > For my pick for the OP, I was trying to remember who was the early QB who revolutionized the game, and couldn’t remember Graham’s name. **Beef** makes some great arguments for him. The game’s so different these days, that it’s hard to compare apples to apples though. > > I like Marino more than either Montana or Elway, FWIW, and Marino’s supporting cast was much worse than either of theirs. I think he’d get killed in today’s NFL though, even with the much more lax rules for WRs and the incredible crackdown on physical LB/DB play over the middle: just too immobile in the pocket to avoid the rush. All IMHO, of course. The thing about Marino was that he was pretty good at avoiding rushers (if he were as immobile as you say, he would have been actually murdered by Bruce Smith), and he had such a fast release that he could deliver the ball quickly even while under duress. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/29 "2013-01-21T17:51:22Z")
[Cold, Hard, Football Facts chimes in](http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/) “When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/30 "2013-01-21T18:02:23Z")
Oh yeah, that page reminds me. YPA. The single most important stat for evaluating a QB, and no one actually seems to care about it. Otto Graham tops the all time list in an era where defenders could actually forcefully throw down a receiver and stick their penises in their ear holes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/31 "2013-01-21T18:39:07Z")
Very hard to compare QBs across eras for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/32 "2013-01-21T18:39:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The single most important stat for evaluating a QB, and no one actually seems to care about it. Otto Graham tops the all time list in an era where defenders could actually forcefully throw down a receiver and stick their penises in their ear holes. There’s a very good chance that that is the first time this sentence has ever been written. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/33 "2013-01-21T20:25:51Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > There’s a very good chance that that is the first time this sentence has ever been written. Or at least the first time outside some extremely specialized (and disturbing) slash fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/34 "2013-01-21T21:08:33Z")
If I only ranked QBs I’ve seen in my lifetime, it’s a tough call between Montana and Peyton Manning. Manning hasn’t had the postseason success that Montana did, but I don’t think he ever had a great team around him. This year’s Broncos team was probably as good a team as Manning has had, and they were one uncoordinated pass break up attempt away from playing at home yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/35 "2013-01-21T21:26:36Z")
Montana was a great quarterback with four Super Bowl rings but I’m endlessly surprised anyone would pick him as the best ever. To be honest I’m not convinced he’s in the top ten; he is the football equivalent of Hakeem Olajuwon, Willie Stargell, or Teemu Selanne, a guy who is definitely a Hall of Famer but there’s no serious reason to think he’s the BEST. His career statistics, taken in context, simply do not support such a claim. He has really good numbers while playing on a team loaded with ridiculous levels of talent, for the most brilliant offensive coach who ever lived. Comparing old-timey QBs to modern ones is really difficult, simply because the game is much, much different. In the moder ngame, for career weight it’s hard to top Brett Favre. But at the absolute peak I never saw a more ferociously dangerous football player than Steve Young. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/36 "2013-01-21T21:40:18Z")
Young may have had more talented 49ers teams than Montana did. And frankly, it wouldn’t be comletely absurd if someone wanted to argue that Olajuwon was the greatest center of the past 30 years. Because, like with NFL QBs, it’s unfair to compare him to Russell and Chamberlain. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/37 "2013-01-21T21:58:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Montana was a great quarterback with four Super Bowl rings but I’m endlessly surprised anyone would pick him as the best ever. You’re surprised that a guy with one of the highest passer ratings, winning percentage, 2 league MVP’S, and huge performances in the biggest games to ever play in the NFL is considered one of the best ever? Remind me not to posit that water is wet or the sun rises in the East lest you suffer a heart attack. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/38 "2013-01-21T22:03:12Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You’re surprised that a guy with one of the highest passer ratings, winning percentage, 2 league MVP’S, and huge performances in the biggest games to ever play in the NFL is considered one of the best ever? Okay, why’s he better than Tom Brady? Heck, Ben Roethlisberger has a resume that’s becoming inceasingly similar. Okay, he’s sort of disgusting, but as a QB… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/39 "2013-01-21T22:10:30Z")
The greatest QB ever is whichever one who won the most championships for your team. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849/40 "2013-01-21T22:42:32Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > If I only ranked QBs I’ve seen in my lifetime, it’s a tough call between Montana and Peyton Manning. Manning hasn’t had the postseason success that Montana did, but I don’t think he ever had a great team around him. This year’s Broncos team was probably as good a team as Manning has had, and they were one uncoordinated pass break up attempt away from playing at home yesterday. I give Manning a lot of credit for the same reason I gave it to Elway. Compare what happened to the Patriots in 2008 to what happened to the Colts in 2011. The Patriots without Brady dropped from 16-0 to 11-5. The Colts without Manning dropped from 10-6 to 2–14. To me, that’s evidence that Manning was carrying his team a lot more than Brady was carrying his. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-best-quarterback-ever/647849.md?page=3)