# The Betamax of Wingnuts, or, When The Wrong Format Wins **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 31, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933 "2024-01-31T21:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/21 "2024-02-01T01:23:26Z")
As it happened, I recently bought some wingnuts. I just double-checked, and they’re the American variety (but not the super-cheap stamped ones). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/22 "2024-02-01T01:49:56Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Duprekyns contracture [Dupuytren Contracture](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dupuytrens-contracture/symptoms-causes/syc-20371943) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/23 "2024-02-01T02:24:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > IMO a male of typical grip strength and not yet arthritic can totally clamp a wingnut down had enough for any use case where it’s a decent design choice of appropriate size. > > Ladies of genteel manners, arthritics, or both? No friggin way. I am not of genteel manners but I am a woman, and my grip strength is way down from what it was when I used to prune grapes for a living. I can still tighten a wingnut. If the equipment comes with a wingnut-tightener my opinion is that they shouldn’t have used a wingnut, but possibly the manufacturers thought the users wouldn’t have tools and it was cheaper to supply a wingnut-tightener than a proper wrench. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/24 "2024-02-01T02:28:19Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If the equipment comes with a wingnut-tightener my opinion is that they shouldn’t have used a wingnut, but possibly the manufacturers thought the users wouldn’t have tools and it was cheaper to supply a wingnut-tightener than a proper wrench. That is a very interesting idea. Thank you! Not “wingnut(s) for easy lifetime adjustability” but rather “wingnut(s) for cheap one-time assembly net of needing included tools.” Any gizmo using the latter logic is using the wrong fastener(s). ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/25 "2024-02-01T02:38:39Z")
I’m thinking more that the whole point of a wingnut is either a) to indicate that this is something that shouldn’t be tightened more than handtight because tightening it too much may either break something or prevent something from moving that should or b) to make it easy to frequently adjust something without needing tools, in which case the something should be designed so that it doesn’t need to be tightened more than can be done by hand tightening the wing nut. In either case needing to put a tool on it defeats the purpose. In the first case putting a tool on it is also liable to break something or prevent it from functioning. The problem isn’t that the wing nut is poorly designed. The problem is that either the thing it’s used on is poorly designed, or the wingnut is the wrong fastener. Or both. Or possibly, as somebody suggested, that it’s a seriously undersized wingnut – in which case that particular wingnut is also the wrong fastener. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/26 "2024-02-01T02:41:02Z")
Yeah. Agree completely. Said another way, wingnuts of a particular size totally _can_ be the right idea for a given application. But there are so many ways to get it wrong that that’s not the way to bet here in the 2024 world of cheap-ass Chinese gizmos for the cost-conscious US market. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/27 "2024-02-01T08:10:29Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Clamp your fingers down hard and there’s no pain; you’ve already crushed all the flex out of the meat in your fingers. I can’t think of a more succinct example of ‘bad ergonomics’. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/28 "2024-02-01T08:33:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Overall, though you’re certainly correct that a craptacular crude Chinese version of an American-format wingnut will bite harder under less pressure than will a well-made German-format nut. I didn’t see this bit. Yeah. Maybe there has also been a race to the bottom with the manufacture of these fasteners. I would say that the only realistic use for the wingnuts in common circulation would be for temporary assembly - for example if there is something that needs to be assembled loosely as a first stage - that is, you’d spin on the wingnuts and do them finger-tight just to get the [whatever-it-is] to stand up straight, then one at a time, you’d remove the wingnuts and replace them with regular nuts and tighten them with a spanner. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/29 "2024-02-01T08:38:14Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The problem isn’t that the wing nut is poorly designed. The problem is that either the thing it’s used on is poorly designed, or the wingnut is the wrong fastener. Or both Or all three. The thing it’s used on may be poorly designed, and the wingnut may be the wrong fastener, AND the wingnut is poorly designed. It is supposed to be tightened using the fingers, yet it is simply not designed to fit them as well as it could be; I’m fairly sure the square edges are an artifact of design for ease of manufacture, rather than ease of use. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/30 "2024-02-01T09:03:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As it happened, I recently bought some wingnuts. I just double-checked, and they’re the American variety (but not the super-cheap stamped ones). I just bought some German Form wingnuts to replace the godawful plastic and pressed brass wingnut-handwheel on one of [these](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1421785-REG) - the rest of the product is superbly well made, but the fastener is not - after a period of regular use, the plastic part slips on the brass threaded insert and can no longer be done up (or in some cases, can’t be undone if the failure happens during tightening). They cost about 10x what I would pay for regular stainless wingnuts in my local hardware shop, but I think most of that is just economy of scale and also manufacturers of less common parts can get away with overpricing, because if you want the part, you want the part. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/31 "2024-02-01T15:19:13Z")
I know some wingnuts. Not sure if they have square or rounded corners, or maybe they are just politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/32 "2024-02-01T16:55:47Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > OK, it’s not impossible to find the good ones, but they are rare so you can’t just find them in any hardware store, BMW uses nice wing-nuts. Spare tire hold down and other places. I fill my pockets with them everytime I hit the junkyard looking for treasure. Slight hijack: BMW also have trunk-mounted tool kits. It simply amazes me how often I’ll come across one in the junkyard and all the tools are still in them. Score! They can sell for big bucks on eBay. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/33 "2024-02-01T17:38:17Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I would say that the only realistic use for the wingnuts in common circulation would be for temporary assembly - for example if there is something that needs to be assembled loosely as a first stage - that is, you’d spin on the wingnuts and do them finger-tight just to get the [whatever-it-is] to stand up straight, then one at a time, you’d remove the wingnuts and replace them with regular nuts and tighten them with a spanner. They’re also used for things that need to be adjusted frequently, and for some things that need to be removed occasionally, as for cleaning or replacement of a part. And, I think, sometimes to indicate “finger tight only!”; though that assumes both some degree of knowledge on the part of the user, and that the user can trust that the manufacturer means it that way, and knows what they’re doing. > [@Mangetout](#): > > The thing it’s used on may be poorly designed, and the wingnut may be the wrong fastener, AND the wingnut is poorly designed. It is supposed to be tightened using the fingers, yet it is simply not designed to fit them as well as it could be; I’m fairly sure the square edges are an artifact of design for ease of manufacture, rather than ease of use. I really don’t see how rounding those edges makes any difference. You’re turning the thing from the flat part, not from the edges. If the surface is too small for your hands to apply enough pressure to tighten it as much as needed, the problem isn’t that the edges are square; it’s that either the wingnut is too small and a larger wingnut should have been provided, or you’re trying to tighten it harder than the design calls for, or a wingnut is the wrong connector because it should be tightened more than finger tight and should use a connector designed for a wrench. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/34 "2024-02-01T17:41:36Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I really don’t see how rounding those edges makes any difference. You’re turning the thing from the flat part, not from the edges. There **is no ‘fat part’** on the American form wingnuts (or the descendants of that form, as commercially available) - the area of the wing is smaller, and thus there is more pressure per unit area for the same torque, and because the area is smaller than the pad of the thumb or finger, the flesh deforms around the sharp(ish) corner of the wing. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/35 "2024-02-01T17:42:48Z")
Ah. So the problem isn’t the rounding, it’s the area. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/36 "2024-02-01T17:44:56Z")
Yes, although both, because the area is smaller, the rounding, or lack thereof, becomes a pressing matter. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/37 "2024-02-01T18:13:17Z")
I don’t mess with wingnuts all the time, but I know what you’re talking about. It instantly called up memories of my fingers hurting after tightening a wingnut, and those always had corners. The corners dig in, even though I’m pressing on the flat part. And, yes, the rounded ones don’t do that. That said, I just considered it normal. It doesn’t hurt that bad if it’s only one or two that you’re doing very rarely. But I get why it would be a problem after the second one. It hurts worse with each wingnut, to that point where you lose feeling yet it still hurts. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/38 "2024-02-01T19:21:54Z")
If you have to do a whole lot of them, try gloves? And not using the tips of your fingers, but the sides. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/39 "2024-02-01T19:37:14Z")
Here’s a comparison of the two, based on technical drawings for the same sized thread: [![](https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4myqNL1v_7LgLuiwh_d-jzvcM0yDNHNxTa_NjTQQuZky9cJBz2QyPu_MwnUQdh3QPdrj31fr9r1yjXUq66uyMKSYyflPL1SCxMTYMytKcKeG2mmr0Q4ZIcUj1xaBTCyi2E_5gxBtl6gcsXP0EoMPeC7zGR4eqM93nXo967y4ekfolg2835Y3ZgJ8sGqiHOWfaH?width=528&height=385&cropmode=none) ](https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4myqNL1v_7LgLuiwh_d-jzvcM0yDNHNxTa_NjTQQuZky9cJBz2QyPu_MwnUQdh3QPdrj31fr9r1yjXUq66uyMKSYyflPL1SCxMTYMytKcKeG2mmr0Q4ZIcUj1xaBTCyi2E_5gxBtl6gcsXP0EoMPeC7zGR4eqM93nXo967y4ekfolg2835Y3ZgJ8sGqiHOWfaH?width=528&height=385&cropmode=none) Now it might be tempting to look at that and say that the German Form may be unsuitable due to its generally larger size for the same thread, but I think that’s a moot point, since anywhere it is used, is somewhere you have to be able to get your fingers into. Part of the comfort factor is the greater wing area; part of it is just that the wings splay a bit wider, so there is more leverage to apply torque (so less pressure for the same tightening force); the softened edges are just the cherry on the top really. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933/40 "2024-02-01T20:59:58Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Here’s a comparison of the two, based on technical drawings for the same sized thread: Nice drawing, though I fear it may summon the Disney people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-betamax-of-wingnuts-or-when-the-wrong-format-wins/996933.md?page=3)