Point taken. I suppose “obedience” in a marriage is a synonym for consultation and compromise–a marriage where husband and
wife did not consult each other in major decisions or attempted to assume headship or submission at the same time could experience friction.
Sorry if I was unclear. The pastor said that Adam did object at first, but gave up and accepted the apple from Eve.
Sigh. It should be noted that the various books of the bible (both Old and New Testaments) were written over about a 1700-year period, give or take a few centuries. The attitudes towards women in the earliest stories (centered around nomadic life) are very different – and far more egalitarian – than those in the later writings (centered around a settled farming community.) The attitude is different in the books that were written based on the Israelite tribal organization, and those that were written under the influence of Greek and Roman civilizations.
Given any set of documents written over that long a time period, you can find stories or quotes to prove whatever you want.
Your pastor is just plain wrong in his interpretation of the Adam/Eve bit. Adam doesn’t “stand by passively,” he knows exactly what he’s doing – read the plain meaning of the text.
In the Old Testament stories, the woman does NOT necessarily play a “passive” or “obedient” role. If Eve is an example of a woman taking action on her own that lead to disasterous results, here are a few counter-examples of women taking action on their own, leading to happy and desired results.
Book of Judges- The woman Jael takes in the enemy general Sisera (who is her hubby’s pal), feeds & gives him drink until he passes out, then pounds a tent-peg through his head. One of The First Bible Grrls!
I despise the idea of anyone preaching on “obedience” as something that any given person is obliged to give to anyone else.
Given willingly, obedience is a part of what makes our society work. Driving down the main highway, I can reasonably expect the cars coming down the side roads will stop for those red octagonal signs facing their way at the corners, and if I’m on the side road, I’m obliged to obey them myself. Any serviceman or -woman knows the importance of unquestioning and willing obedience to a lawful order from a superior officer, and anyone above the rank of PFC probably knows it from both sides of the issue. Monastics vow poverty, chastity, and obedience – that they will live a chaste life free from worldly goods and savings, following the rule of their order and the directions of their Abbot, Prior, Minister, or whatevr their order places over them.
Likewise, it should be the choice of both spouses in a marriage to be willing, at least in principle, to defer to what the person they love wants rather than forcing their own will. However, in practice that way leads to resentment and frustration on the part of the spouse who always defers. Ideally, the couple should arrive at a consensus decision, which may be an agreement to disagree – rather than their doing X or Y, he will do X and she Y, with both parties happy both that they’re doing what they themselves want to do and that their beloved is happy doing what he/she wants to do.
This process does not work, though, when a choice must be made: move 1,000 miles for a lucrative and rewarding new job; replace the car that is beginning to nickel-and-dime down their budget with unexpected repair bills, or live with the ongoing expense of repairs rather than come up with the capital needed to replace; send handicapped child for expensive and risky surgery that will correct handicap if successful but which may kill child if it fails and in any case will put them deep in debt. They must arrive at a decision in such cases.
When after long heartfelt talks they can arrive at a consensus, all well and good. But they have to have a process for breaking any impasse that results. The most common solution is for the more decisive partner – the one more able to weigh all factors and arrive at a decision – to consider carefully and lovingly the views of his/her partner, and then make a decision they will both agree to. And that calls for the other partner to agree to be obedient to that decision as and when such situations occur. In a healthy marriage, they won’t occur often, because there will be common consent on most decisions and an ability to arrive at consensus much of the rest of the time – but on the rare occasions when such critical situations occur, they can be dealbreakers when there is no such process in place.
Paul, working in a particular culture with patriarchal roots and observing trends of human nature, places the burden for such decision-making on the husband, obliging him to cherish his wife and be prepared to sacrifice for her to prevent a dominance relationship. For those who exalt the Bible such as Svt4Him, that’s mandatory. For others such as me and my wife, it’s what happens to work well for us. For George VI and the late Queen Mother, the reverse process was appropriate – he was deferential and indecisive; she was assertive and firm, and cherished and strengthened him. Bill and Hilary Clinton are not my favorite example of an ideal double-strong couple, but certainly their careers illustrate that it’s quite possible to hav a stable marriage between two decisive people. How they make decisions of that ilk would be a fascinating question to explore.
Over and above all this, it’s important to note how a strong woman operates in a patriarchal society in the stories of Biblical women mentioned above. Ruth, for example, first makes up her mind to accompany Naomi back to Bethlehem, then manipulates the quite willing Boaz into marrying her. Judith and Jael use the “pass” given to women to bring about victories their nation’s armies could not. And Mary, in obedience to God’s word brought to her by an angel, is willing to bear the obloquy of being an unwed mother in order to bring Jesus into the world.
It’s probably important to note that the factuality of these stories is not the issue – it’s the points they make about human nature in such situations that are key.
So many wonderful things happen when wives are submissive. Like that poor bimbo who was breast-feeding her baby while driving 60 on the highway because her husband commanded her to. I just makes so much sense to marry a half-wit and let him think for you!