# The Bible and the Trinity: The Trinity and the OT. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501 "2013-03-09T20:48:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/21 "2013-03-11T06:12:54Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > However, we also have a character who shows up from Genesis onward, especially in Torah, but also in Joshua, Zechariah, etc. who is called “the angel of YHWH” and yet also speaks as YHWH, calls himself YHWH, and apparently even accepts worship as YHWH. Jewish explanations for this range from “angels speaking as prophets- humans who YHWH authorized to speak for Himself” to “angels are not individual beings but situational theophanies” to “there exists a special angel- the Metatron aka the lesser YHWH”- Trinitarian Christians often point to this being as The Divine Son. > > [Metatron - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron) > > [Angel of the Lord - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_of_the_Lord#Christian_views) > > And then there is also this- Isaiah 59… > > 15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. > > 16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. > > 17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. > > 18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. > > 19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. > > 20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. > > 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. > > To me, this is a prophecy of the Incarnation- that YHWH God has no reliable human to redeem His people, so He’s putting on the armor & doing it Himself. > > Flash forward to Revelation 5… > > 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? > > 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. > > 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereo > > 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Hello **Friar Ted**. We can usually count on you and **Polycarp** to be 2 of the more prepared and thoughtful posters. A problem-----IMV-----is that discussions about the bible and things like the Trinity often are complex enough, and have different constituent parts, that they devolve into splintered parallel discussions. It’s well established that the Trinity is a settled matter in the vast majority of Christendom. So _it has to_ have an origin somewhere. The point of this thread is to perhaps identify the true source of the Trinity. Towards that end, we’re focusing on the OT, and whether there is/was a scriptural **OT** basis for the Trinity. Any companion discussions we may have on the Trinity may focus on the Gospels, or NT-------or the Council of Nicea. If in the end we reveal that the Trinity derives from Jewish superstitions/ traditions, or the Nicean Creed, or Gospels not in the generally accepted Canon, or even pagan religions, _and they’re accepted as valid authorities_, who am I to quarrel? \*This OP in this thread, however, \*maintains the Trinity is unheard of in the OT, and unheard of in Judaism. As to your post, the “Metatron” reference says, in part, _"…There are no references to Metatron as an angel in the Jewish Tanakh or Christian scriptures (New and Old Testament)…"and “… Although he is mentioned in a few brief passages in the Talmud, Metatron appears primarily in medieval Jewish mystical texts and other post-scriptural esoteric and occult sources, such as the Books of Enoch…”_ As I mentioned, my interest is revealing the true source of the Trinity, and if someone views Jewish mystical texts. and the book of “Enoch” to be valid authoritative sources from which to worship God I have no quarrel. **But, let’s be clear, “Metatron” is _not_ in the generally accepted bible canon.** As to your cite in Isaiah, here is all of Isaiah 59: > [@](#): > > 59 Look! The hand of Jehovah has not become too short that it cannot save,+ nor has his ear become too heavy that it cannot hear.+ 2 No, but the very errors of YOU people have become the things causing division between YOU and YOUR God,\*+ and YOUR own sins have caused the concealing of [his] face from YOU to keep from hearing.+ 3 For YOUR own palms have become polluted with blood,+ and YOUR fingers with error. YOUR own lips have spoken falsehood.+ YOUR own tongue kept muttering sheer unrighteousness.+ 4 There is no one calling out in righteousness,+ and no one at all has gone to court in faithfulness. There has been a trusting in unreality,+ and a speaking of worthlessness.+ There has been a conceiving of trouble, and a bringing of what is hurtful to birth.+ > > 5 The eggs of a poisonous snake are what they have hatched, and they kept weaving the mere cobweb of a spider.+ Anyone eating some of their eggs would die, and the [egg] that was smashed would be hatched into a viper.+ 6 Their mere cobweb will not serve as a garment, nor will they cover themselves with their works.+ Their works are hurtful works, and the activity of violence is in their palms.+ 7 Their own feet keep running to sheer badness,+ and they are in a hurry to shed innocent blood.+ Their thoughts are hurtful thoughts;+ despoiling and breakdown are in their highways._+ 8 The way of peace+ they have ignored, and there is no justice in their tracks.+ Their roadways they have made crooked for themselves.+ No one at all treading in them_ will actually know peace.+ > > 9 That is why justice has come to be far away from us, and righteousness does not catch up with us. We keep hoping for light, but, look! darkness; for brightness, [but] in continuous gloom we kept walking.+ 10 We keep groping for the wall just like blind men, and like those without eyes we keep groping.+ We have stumbled at high noon just as in evening darkness; among the stout ones [we are] just like dead people.+ 11 We keep groaning, all of us, just like bears; and like doves we mournfully keep cooing.+ We kept hoping for justice,+ but there was none; for salvation, [but] it has stayed far away from us.+ 12 For our revolts have become many in front of you;+ and as for our sins, each one has testified against us.+ For our revolts are with us; and as for our errors, we well know them.+ 13 There have been transgressing and a denying of Jehovah;+ and there was a moving back from our God,\* a speaking of oppression and revolt,+ a conceiving and a muttering of words of falsehood from the very heart.+ 14 And justice was forced to move back,+ and righteousness itself kept standing simply far off.+ For truth has stumbled even in the public square, and what is straightforward is unable to enter.+ 15 And the truth proves to be missing,+ and anyone turning away from badness is being despoiled.+ > > And Jehovah got to see, and it was bad in his eyes that there was no justice.+ 16 And when he saw that there was no man,\* he began to show himself astonished that there was no one interposing.+ And his arm proceeded to save for him, and his own righteousness was the thing that supported him.+ 17 Then he put on righteousness as a coat of mail,+ and the helmet of salvation upon his head.+ Furthermore, he put on the garments of vengeance as raiment+ and enwrapped himself with zeal as if a sleeveless coat.+ 18 In accordance with the dealings he will reward correspondingly,+ rage to his adversaries, due treatment to his enemies.+ To the islands\* he will recompense due treatment.+ 19 And from the sunset they will begin to fear the name of Jehovah,+ and from the rising of the sun the glory of him,+ for he will come in like a distressing river,\* which the very spirit\* of Jehovah has driven along.+ > > 20 “And to Zion+ the Repurchaser+ will certainly come, and to those turning from transgression\* in Jacob,”+ is the utterance of Jehovah. > > 21 “And as for me, this is my covenant with them,”+ Jehovah has said. > > “My spirit that is upon you\*+ and my words that I have put in your mouth+—they will not be removed from your mouth or from the mouth of your offspring\* or from the mouth of the offspring of your offspring,” Jehovah has said, “from now on even to time indefinite.”+ **NWT** Now does Isaiah 59 make a case explicitly or implicitly for Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as a triune god head? **No.** Having been raised as a trinitarian I well acquainted with the pervasiveness of the Trinity. It isn’t ever questioned, and _accepted as fact from our earliest memories._ So, IME the Trinity is virtually never vetted against _what the bible actually says_, and the Trinity is shoehorned into texts that never explicitly say it, and virtually never even imply it. (and in every instance it is _past_ tenuous) IMV, this post has this same bias; a belief precedes the reading so the Trinity is imputed into the text. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/22 "2013-03-11T06:28:45Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Several people have hinted at the truth, without seeming to fully realize it. > > Unlike English, which has only singular and plural, Hebrew has singular, **dual,** and plural. > > As other people have pointed out, “Elohim” is a plural word–_which means that it refers to at least three items_. And yet, God refers to Himself as singular. One example of this, out of very many, is Micah 6:4–“For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.” > > Now I realize that the early Jews probably didn’t realize the significance of this. Many things relating to God were hidden, or partially so, in the Old Testament that became clear in the New Testament. Nevertheless, this is absolute proof of the Trinity. Even if there were no other mention of the Trinity anywhere in the Bible, this one fact alone would constitute unassailable proof. _There is no other logical explanation for how a plural word can take a singular pronoun._ Great. Let’s investigate this. Please show me from the OT, using textual cites. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/23 "2013-03-11T08:24:11Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Great. Let’s investigate this. > > Please show me from the OT, using textual cites. That’s just playing dumb. He just gave you proof. If you want to try and refute it go ahead. Your turn. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/24 "2013-03-11T08:50:22Z")
I have read that the ancient Indo-European religion has been shown to emphasize a “trinity.” Roman paganism was derived from that religion and preserved some sense of trinity. This was then imposed on Christianity as it was Romanized. I lack any expertise to defend or refute this thesis. Googling “Indo-European trinity” gets interesting-looking hits; I hope some Doper expert will explain it back to me! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/25 "2013-03-11T10:03:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I have read that the ancient Indo-European religion has been shown to emphasize a “trinity.” Roman paganism was derived from that religion and preserved some sense of trinity. This was then imposed on Christianity as it was Romanized. > > I lack any expertise to defend or refute this thesis. Googling “Indo-European trinity” gets interesting-looking hits; I hope some Doper expert will explain it back to me! :dubious: First I’ve heard of this. I’m inclined to dismiss it as rubish, as it doesn’t jive with anything I know, but I’m willing to listen. Got a link? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/26 "2013-03-11T11:22:35Z")
Then you have the Psalmist stating ( 81 in RC version 82 in KJV) stating," I said you are gods and sons of the most high," Jesus backs this up in John 10; “It says in your law, I said you are gods, so why do you accuse me of Blasphemy,because I call God my father, when your father’s did”. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/27 "2013-03-11T12:17:33Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > First I’ve heard of this. > I’m inclined to dismiss it as rubish, as it doesn’t jive with anything I know, but I’m willing to listen. > Got a link? Latro, let me ask you…Are you a trinintatian Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/28 "2013-03-11T12:25:44Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Latro, let me ask you…Are you a trinintatian Christian? Why would you ask? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/29 "2013-03-11T13:17:56Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Why would you ask? Just curious. You don’t have to answer. These discussions tend to fracture and devolve and so I’d prefer to focus on the OT in this thread. I think we’d be more likely to have a more comprehensive discussion. I think companion discussions in that effort would include the Gospels, post Christ NT writings and a historical review to see if pagan religions influenced Christianity. (much like Christmas etc) **So I’d like to shelve that discussion for now** , other than to say that **septimus** was spot on. There’s boodles of evidence that the Trinity has pagan influence. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/30 "2013-03-11T13:31:47Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Several people have hinted at the truth, without seeming to fully realize it. > > Unlike English, which has only singular and plural, Hebrew has singular, **dual,** and plural. > > As other people have pointed out, “Elohim” is a plural word–_which means that it refers to at least three items_. And yet, God refers to Himself as singular. One example of this, out of very many, is Micah 6:4–“For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.” > > Now I realize that the early Jews probably didn’t realize the significance of this. Many things relating to God were hidden, or partially so, in the Old Testament that became clear in the New Testament. Nevertheless, this is absolute proof of the Trinity. Even if there were no other mention of the Trinity anywhere in the Bible, this one fact alone would constitute unassailable proof. _There is no other logical explanation for how a plural word can take a singular pronoun._ I’ll address this later, ok? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/31 "2013-03-11T14:56:20Z")
Commandment # 1–2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Does God say he is the ONLY god? NO! Only that he is the bestest. I’ve never been able to wrap my head around the Jehovah Witnesses idea that God is God and Jesus is a god, but there’s only one God. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/32 "2013-03-11T15:39:05Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/33 "2013-03-11T16:28:45Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Commandment # 1–2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Please cite the text so we can investigate it, ok? > [@](#): > > Does God say he is the ONLY god? NO! Only that he is the bestest. 😕😕 God _is in fact_ speaking in the singular, first person. 😕😕 If you’re implying he’s leaving the door open that he might be part of a triune god-head _(which he’s not even implying here!)_ because he didn’t say “There is no Trinity”, I’d say that’s kind of riduculous. You’re never going to make a case for an OT Trinity because of what God \*\*\*didn’t \*\*\*say. You’ll have to make that case on what he \*\*\*did \*\*\*say. But he didn’t did he? > [@](#): > > I’ve never been able to wrap my head around the Jehovah Witnesses idea that God is God and Jesus is a god, but there’s only one God. I don’t know why as I’ve corrected you more than once. But perhaps we’ll get to that if there is interest. We’re focusing on the case for the Trinity in the OT in this thread, so please let’s stick to that for now, please. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/34 "2013-03-11T16:44:47Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Commandment # 1–2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. > > Does God say he is the ONLY god? NO! Only that he is the bestest. > > I’ve never been able to wrap my head around the Jehovah Witnesses idea that God is God and Jesus is a god, but there’s only one God. I would add that his discussion is contextually the OT Jews. Your logic-------that the Trinity is present because he expressly didn’t say it wasn’t-----then _requires some **previous** knowledge of the Trinity from somewhere else_ _to retroactively apply to these texts._ Both \*\*tomndebb \*\*and \*\*Dex \*\*have stated (correctly imv) that the Trinity is a result of later works. Sure God didn’t expressly say there wasn’t a Trinity, but that not’s saying much. In fact, \*it’s not saying anything. \* ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/35 "2013-03-11T22:17:57Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > The point of this thread is to perhaps identify the true source of the Trinity. Towards that end, we’re focusing on the OT, and whether there is/was a scriptural **OT** basis for the Trinity. Any companion discussions we may have on the Trinity may focus on the Gospels, or NT-------or the Council of Nicea. It is pretty clear that the idea of the Trinity developed in the first century. There is no evidence that it was handed to any of the apostles as a complete idea and it does not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures–nor does it appear in the intertestamental works. One conjecture that I have heard is that the early church certainly clung to the Jewish notion of one God. However, as the concept that Jesus was, himself, God developed, along with the statements of Jesus that He would send His Spirit, the idea that God was three and one developed along with it. As to when the idea was formalized, there is strong evidence that it was a matter of belief before the end of the first century. Matthew’s Gospel ends with the exhortation to go and baptize “in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit” which indicates a concept of the three. References to the father and son are frequent, of course, but several passages in Matthew, Luke, and John refer to the Spirit as a separate entity. If we include the descending Spirit at the baptism of Jesus, such a reference is found in all four gospels. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/36 "2013-03-11T22:23:08Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Please cite the text so we can investigate it, ok? . . . Joking? In a discussion of the Bible, you ask for a cite for the Ten Commandments? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/37 "2013-03-11T22:24:46Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Several people have hinted at the truth, without seeming to fully realize it. > > Unlike English, which has only singular and plural, Hebrew has singular, **dual,** and plural. > > As other people have pointed out, “Elohim” is a plural word–_which means that it refers to at least three items_. And yet, God refers to Himself as singular. One example of this, out of very many, is Micah 6:4–“For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.” > > Now I realize that the early Jews probably didn’t realize the significance of this. Many things relating to God were hidden, or partially so, in the Old Testament that became clear in the New Testament. Nevertheless, this is absolute proof of the Trinity. Even if there were no other mention of the Trinity anywhere in the Bible, this one fact alone would constitute unassailable proof. _There is no other logical explanation for how a plural word can take a singular pronoun._ Hello **Flyer.** I appreciate your comments and I’m surprised to see the use of the word “Elohim” is “_unassailable proof_” (your exact words) of the Trinity. So I’d like to investigate the word. “Elohim” is a word that _does not_ _ **mean** _ “God.” I trust we’re in agreement on that, right? When used in connection with Yahweh, it’s describing his qualities. Elohim is the plural of _majesty_ or _excellence._ As you noted, it is a plural word. Yet the Hebrew scriptures also uses the same word to describe mighty creatures that aren’t Yahweh at times, right? At **Psalms 8:5** **New English Bible** and \*\*Jerusalem Bible \*_render **elohim** as: "You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones.” \* At the same location the_ The Greek Septuagint Version \*\* renders elohim as “angels.” **Psalms 82:1-6** uses elohim in reference to human judges. At **Gen 42:30** Joseph is referred to as the “lord of Egypt”, using “adhoneh”, the **plural** of excellence. The Greek language does not have a plural for _majesty_ or _excellence_ so when translating used “Theos”, a **singular** word is used to represent God. Pagans from Babylon often referred to their gods as Elohim as well. In fact Elohim is used in the same way for individual pagan divinities, such as Dagon ( **1Samuel 5:7** ) and Marduk ( **Daniel 1:2** ), **who were not triune gods.** **Aaron Ember** , author of **The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures** states, \*“Several phenomena in the universe were designated in Hebrew by plural expressions because they inspired the Hebrew mind with the idea of greatness, majesty, grandeur, and holiness.” \* The same guy says later, _“Various theories have been advanced to explain the use of the plural form elohim as a designation of the God of Israel. Least plausible is the view of the old theologians, beginning with Peter Lombard (12th century), that we have in the plural form a reference to the Trinity. … That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in elohim (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a **singular verbal predicate** , and takes a **singular adjectival attribute**. … elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God. It ranks with the plurals adonim [“master”] and baalim [“owner,” “lord”] employed with reference to human beings.”_ (bolding mine) Would you really say _“There is no other logical explanation for how a plural word can take a singular pronoun.”_? Given the TONS of evidence surrounding the use of the word “Elohim” would you really say the use of it to designate Yahweh _"is absolute proof of the Trinity._"? Really? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/38 "2013-03-11T22:30:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is pretty clear that the idea of the Trinity developed in the first century. There is no evidence that it was handed to any of the apostles as a complete idea and it does not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures–nor does it appear in the intertestamental works. > > One conjecture that I have heard is that the early church certainly clung to the Jewish notion of one God. However, as the concept that Jesus was, himself, God developed, along with the statements of Jesus that He would send His Spirit, the idea that God was three and one developed along with it. > > As to when the idea was formalized, there is strong evidence that it was a matter of belief before the end of the first century. Matthew’s Gospel ends with the exhortation to go and baptize “in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit” which indicates a concept of the three. References to the father and son are frequent, of course, but several passages in Matthew, Luke, and John refer to the Spirit as a separate entity. If we include the descending Spirit at the baptism of Jesus, such a reference is found in all four gospels. For the purpose of discussion, I make a distinction between the words attributed to Jesus, and the rest of the Gospel commentary. If there is interest, I’ll start threads focused on those issues individually. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/39 "2013-03-11T22:35:00Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > That’s just playing dumb. > He just gave you proof. If you want to try and refute it go ahead. Your turn. I actually overlooked his cite. My bad. But, I re-read it, and answered substantively I think. And, he offered evidence that I think a serious student would easily refute. But evidence is not proof. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501/40 "2013-03-13T00:49:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s lucky the Christians didn’t end up revering the Father, Son and the Good Haircut. [We didn’t?](http://www.google.com/search?q=great+men's+haircuts&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS469US469&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8ck_UYneOIW6yAGYx4DoAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=677) And not all of them are goyim, either. > [@raindog](#): > > What is clear—and the part I largely agree with----is that for _millennium_ prior to Jesus’s arrival the Jews were not trinitarians… Nah, they were plain ol’ polytheists and needed regular ass kickings by the rabbis to get back in line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-and-the-trinity-the-trinity-and-the-ot/652501.md?page=3)