The Bible and the Trinity: What did Jesus have to say about the Trinity?

It is my understanding that Tomndebb is making a point that there is no proof that humans decided what was inspired, and what was the word of God. And I say, because it was written and called the word by human beings that , the fact that it was the work ,written, ,taught, and thought( through the ages that it was God’s word and inspired by God)) that is really the work etc. of human beings, and not by God any more than any other writings; and just as the dictionary ,history books etc. we don’t even suggest that they were inspired or of God, anymore than the Koran or other writings and we don’t doubt that it is not written by humans and even though we don’t know the writers personally we trust as fact that they are or were human beings, and accept that as true.

As far as I am concerned, since the named writers were humans so was their writings, and teachings. I respect tomndebb and I concede that he believes in his church or he wouldn’t answer or question my thinking.

I know several people who go to Bible study a lot and didn’t know the 82d Psalm in their KJV mentions that the people it was written for were called gods, or the John 10 mention that Jesus reminded them that their fathers called themselves gods and children of God.

Well…it’s still possible that a supernatural agency whispered the words into their pink little ears. That theistic notion is not absolutely disproven. In fact, it pretty much can’t be. The idea can be defended to the point of being “nonsensical,” i.e., not testable by any means. (The angel that narrated the Koran to Mohammed was invisible to everyone else, etc.)

There simply is no “proving” some ideas. I share with you the principle that the worlds’ holy books are purely of human creation, but I shy just short of claiming that it is proven (or provable.)

I think you’re arguing over semantics -

You’re saying that “the absence of God’s hand has been proven”

He’s saying “that has not been proven”

a) He’s right - you cannot prove a negative - you cannot prove “God’s Absence” anymore than you can prove “God does not exist”.

b) You’re ‘right’ from the Atheist point of view - 'God does not exist, therefore he could not have had a hand in the writings" - but that is not a factual claim - You could say that “Since there is no evidence for God - there is therefore no evidence that God had any hand in the writings” and be more accurate in what you are saying.

c) He never said - and repeated it - that ‘God wrote it’.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
I have made no claim that God had any hand in the writing of any scripture.
[/QUOTE]

And I think it is pretty clear that not only did ‘man’ write the stuff - but ‘men’ decided what was ‘inspired’ in one sense or another.

No. Regardless of what you or I believe, your actual statement was that it was proven that God had no hand in the creation of or selection of scripture. I have merely pointed out that it is not proven one way or another–and certainly you have provided nothing resembling anything like proof of your position.

In point of fact, I have not offered any of my beliefs on this topic in this thread, so your speculation regarding my beliefs is irrelevant. Thus, the following straw man is not relevant to this discussion:

I have not questioned your “thinking” or your beliefs. I have pointed out that you made one erroneous assertion regarding proof. Your response to my pointing out that single error has been to ascribe to me things I have not said and to comment on your version of what I may or may not believe, creating straw men to attack and dragging red herrings across the path of the discussion.

I have no interest in going around this point several more times when, clearly, you are either not capable of or not interested in addressing my actual statement.
simster got it and Trinopus has gotten it. Maybe some day you will.

It is apparent that I did not make myself clear, my intention had nothing to do with the proof of a God or any God ,it was that some humans decided they knew. or were the voice of God, and there is no proof of that, but the proof that indeed humans did the writings and decided what was inspired. I could claim God told me it wasn’t anything of His doing, that he had no religion ,nor liked any religion. It would not be the truth, but some would believe me.

As far as I can tell God is unknowable, and it is only through belief that people feel a God exists. There are many translations of the word God and what it means, hence many religions.

THere is plenty of proof that those individuals (past and present, even a few on this board right now) THINK that - evidenced by there own words - there is zero proof or evidence that they actually ‘are’.

So, I am still not sure what you are driving at - or if you think anyone here is disagreeing with you?

Are you simply stating that -

“The bible authors claim divine guidance , but there is no proof beyond their word that it is so” ??

Because, if so - I don’t believe anyone, much less **tommndeb **, disagree with you on that.

Yes, it was the fact that the Bible was written by humans and humans considered it the word of God. Believers still do. I have been in churches where they say’ This is the word of the Lord", and to be truthful they should say we believe this is the word of the Lord" ,because Humans claim it to be doesn’t make it so. And there is proof that it was written and called the word of God by humans an, I understood that tomndebb was claiming there was no proof it was written or said to be inspired by humans. I apparently didn’t understand his point.

Again, there is no proof that angels didn’t narrate the Bible (or Koran, or Book of Mormon) to the people who physically wrote down the words. There can never be proof of this; the notion eludes any kind of test.

The middle ground here is a little like “theistic evolution.” It can never be disproven, because it is specifically beyond any meaningful test or examination. Maybe the early church convocation that selected which books were to go into the Bible was “divinely inspired.” Maybe the Pope, today, is “divinely inspired” when he makes a formal declaration regarding doctrine. Maybe the elders of the Latter Day Saints are “divinely inspired” when they reveal a new interpretation of the law. There is no conceivable way to know for sure that some supernatural influence is not involved.

For me, the biggest complication is that, since they can’t all be infallibly inspired by the unified word of God – because they contradict each other all to hell! – that either there are lots of gods, or only one but nobody can say which, or there aren’t any – which is the supposition most closely supported by the evidence.

But it isn’t “proven” and it is your use of this word that is causing this digression.

In my mind, it goes into that big bucket of ideas that are simply based on individual faith, and faith is very similar to individual tastes, choices, and preferences. If you like what the Catholics teach, cool. If you like what “Ask the Rabbi” teaches, cool. If you like what Fred Phelps teaches…ugh.

I am not asking for proof that God said or did anything ,I am stating that Humans wrote the writings of anything we have written, or was taught, and humans decided what was of God and what was not. Just as any book was written by humans, and there is proof that it was written by humans, that Is my point. Through belief (or faith) people give the credit to God.

All right, this is getting a bit out of hand. First point is that “divine inspiration” pf the Bible, whatever an individual may mean by the term, is only tangentially related to the question of Scriptural evidence of the Trinity. (A good bit of evidence on this point would be the posts of cmkeller and zev_steinhart, devout Orthodox Jews who do believe in the divine inspiration of Scripture but not in the Trinity.) Second, I get the distinct impression that people generally do not understand what is meant by “divine inspiration.” The idea that God propria persona dictated the precise text of the Bible to its human ‘authors’ like a 1940s executive dictating a letter to his secretary, is held only by a minority of the literalist inerrantist fundamentalists, much less the mainstream churches Catholic and Protestant. Rather, it’s something more like “Cecil inspires Dopers to fight ignorance in their posts,” where nobody thinks that implies him calling one of us up to say, “Listen, post this to that IMHO thread…” or perhaps an advocacy group which “inspires” its membership to support its goals by writing in their own words, supplying some helpful evidence they may quote in their letters if they so choose. Having grasped the meaning of a given term, I can then explain it to others.

Further, “the Bible” is a collection of those works, in a variety of genres, that seemed to the early Church to accurately reflect the evolving understanding of the Israelites, Jews, and first Christians about the God in whom they believed. When someone brings to a book compiled more than 1600 years ago the standards of “objective history and biography” which are less than 250 years old, one is sure to go astray. The Jews taught by haggadah: story, fable, parable, and so did Jesus. The style in which the historical books were written is the pre-modern one that sees God influencing and judging the people in His world. The Gospels are Plutarchian biographies, painting Jesus in four different roles I could go on at length on this, but let me leave it with one thought: in a day before Gregg Shorthand and Dictaphones, what was presented as “a teaching by Leader X” was always a reconstruction by the author, ideally true to the speaker’s subject and concepts but no more verbatim than a modern ‘indirect quotation’ (e.g. “Monavis said that the idea of inspiration is unfalsifiable”) where the author (me) is responsible, not for proving the speaker (Monavis) said those exact words, but rather for reporting accurately the meaning of what she said. This becomes important in analyzing the content of various Bible books.

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It’s also important to distinguish between the Triune God and the Doctrine of the Trinity. The first is simply a reporting of the experiences of the first Christians; the second is a human explication, using the terms and categories of Aristotelian logic, to explain the apparent paradox in a way hat made sense to the people of the time.

Further, distinguish between ‘god’, an entity with superhuman powers, and God, an omnipotent, omniscient being. It is trivially simple to show that, while there may be polytheistic pantheons of gods, there can be only one God, as two would interfere with each other’s omnipotence, and plausibly omniscience as well. Hence there is only (at most) one God.

Now, I ask to be granted one presumption: there existed an itinerant rabbi xalled Yeshua bar Mariam. I am explicitly avoiding calling him “Jesus Christ” to avoid the baggage that term carries; we are speaking here and for the moment of a human being, about as well documented as Socrates, Gautama, or Zoroaster. A robust skepticism could call any one of them a human invention, but the majority of people would consider that they did exist, even if some hard-to-believe stories accreted to the historical base.

Now, after what the first Christians believed themselves to have experienced, their attitude was, “When we see Jesus, we see God.” (Note this is an assertion about their perceptions, not one about objective reality.) And further, Jesus had promised, and shortly thereafter the first Christians experienced, the presence of the Holy Spirit as God active in their everyday lives.

Now, the loving Father of whom Jesus had taught, Jesus himself, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct personal entities. But the Israelites and then the Jews had been firm on the idea there is only one God.

Now, the Greek text uses theos (properly declined) to describe the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, indifferently. They did not sort out the idea this was a paradox; it was a ‘fact’ of their existence, something they had experierienced in their own lives. They did not sort out the paradox for much the same reason as they did not define the morality of heart transplants – it would be the answer to a question no one had yet asked.

As time went by and experience gave way to expression of faith, the question did come up. And the Council of Nicaea roughed out an answer, refined 50 years later by one of the Councils of Constantinople.

But the key point to me is that the Doctrine of the Trinity is a human construct intended to explicate how one God can be three distinct Persons. Its value is simply in giving a philosophical ‘handle’ on an apparent paradox.

Beliief in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God, is an essential of Christianity. (With apologies to Mormons, JWs, Oneness Pentecostals, UUists, etc.: you’re privileged to believe what you wish, but I’m speaking of traditional Christianity here.) That is to be read as “belief in persons”, much as one might say he or she believes in his/her fiance/e/spouse, i.e., puts his/her trust in that other person. Adherence to a theological definition is quite a different thing – if it ‘works’ for you, helps clarify the apparent paradox, fine, adhere to it; if not, believe in a Triune God and resolve the question, if you need to, by a means more amenable to your needs. (I like the idea of setting up a Modalist individual-in-three-roles and a Tritheist three-people-in-one-corporation, then noting the problems witje each and suggesting the truth about the Trinity lies in the area between them.

However, those people, minority or not, have a huge influence in the U.S. They dominate religious radio broadcasting.

There is no proof that God inspired any one or any thing, Poly, that is a matter of believing in the people who declared it as such.

I am glad to see you back on this board, Your ideas make one think.