# The Bible - Before Man **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176 "2003-09-17T17:34:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tallayan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Tallayan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tallayan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/21 "2003-09-18T00:46:59Z")
I belive your catholic, if not this does not apply to you. The way I was taught was that everything untill after noah’s flood should not nessicarily be taken literally. Now aday’s I believe the official Catholic stance is that the bible is not factuall in the little details, its the broad message. Ergo the official papal stance on evolution, big bang, etc. is to go along with modern science. So basically, the awnser would be yes, there were Dinosaurs, but they died before the garden of Eden. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/22 "2003-09-18T00:59:15Z")
A red-shirted ensign dies. Ok, the shirts aren’t red, but…y’know. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/23 "2003-09-18T00:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*It does mention dinosaurs. But to ask that question has nothing to do with faith. \*\* Ah yes, I forgot that we recently unearthed a fire breathing dinosaur fossil. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/24 "2003-09-18T01:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally, I don’t think Genesis can be looked at literally, it has to be looked at allegorically. I mean, if you look at it literally you’ll have to explain a whole mess of contradictions and oddities (IMO). To declare one part of the Bible “metaphor and poetry” when it’s not explicit is just silly. By that reasoning, anything in the Bible could be metaphor or poetry. If the Bible is open to interpretation when you don’t agree with it, then the Bible is open to interpretation when anyone disagrees with it. Hypothetically: I put to you that “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is flowery prose that refers not to human life but to botched hollandaise sauce, because I think slaughtering humans is great fun, but I absolutely abhor bungled Eggs Benedict. Isn’t that a valid interpretation? The Bible’s not _completely_ explicit. “Thou Shalt Not Kill” could refer shellfish murder. Maybe God’s most proud of the shellfish out of all his creations, and wishes to drive in the “Don’t mess with shellfish” point that Moses delivered. Any more of this “I can interpret what I want, but the rest of it is the word of god” silliness, and I’ll be tempted to throw someone under a camel. ---
**Author:** ![Wearia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@Wearia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wearia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/25 "2003-09-18T01:06:13Z")
[More on dinosaurs and the Bible](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150310) ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/26 "2003-09-18T01:08:17Z")
Correction: “…could refer **to** shellfish murder.” Preview, Gadfly, preview! Get your head in the game! ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/27 "2003-09-18T01:30:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enola Straight \* > \*\*A red-shirted ensign dies. > > Ok, the shirts aren’t red, but…y’know. \*\* WHOOPS! answered the wrong thread. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/28 "2003-09-18T02:10:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadfly \* > \*\*To declare one part of the Bible “metaphor and poetry” when it’s not explicit is just silly. By that reasoning, anything in the Bible could be metaphor or poetry. If the Bible is open to interpretation when you don’t agree with it, then the Bible is open to interpretation when anyone disagrees with it. \*\* Alright then, _which version of Genesis is the literal one?_ Chapter one or chapter two? For that matter, how is it possible for Genesis 30:37-40 to occur at all? In addition, IMO, everyone interprets the bible to a certain extent. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadfly \* > \*\*Hypothetically: > > I put to you that “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is flowery prose that refers not to human life but to botched hollandaise sauce, because I think slaughtering humans is great fun, but I absolutely abhor bungled Eggs Benedict.\*\* If you choose to interpret it as such, then go right ahead-however this little absurd example of yours seems to assume that Genesis can be taken literally. How can it? What’s the order of creation? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadfly \* > **Isn’t that a valid interpretation? The Bible’s not _completely_ explicit. “Thou Shalt Not Kill” could refer shellfish murder. Maybe God’s most proud of the shellfish out of all his creations, and wishes to drive in the “Don’t mess with shellfish” point that Moses delivered.** Do you really want to get into contradictions? I don’t think you do. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadfly \* > \*\*Any more of this “I can interpret what I want, but the rest of it is the word of god” silliness, and I’ll be tempted to throw someone under a camel. \*\* I see, so _you_ have the divine interpretation that we all should follow. What makes your interpretation correct? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/29 "2003-09-18T04:30:43Z")
Meatros: > [@](#): > > Personally, I don’t think Genesis can be looked at literally, it has to be looked at allegorically. Why the euphamism “allegorically?” Why not “totally made up B.S. from guys who didn’t have a clue as to what they were talking about?” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/30 "2003-09-18T04:51:48Z")
Just because you can’t manage to grasp it as allegory, **chad** , you needn’t be snotty to those who can. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/31 "2003-09-18T04:55:04Z")
And **Night** , I’ll ask again: What’s the debate here? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/32 "2003-09-18T05:06:35Z")
andros: > [@](#): > > Just because you can’t manage to grasp it as allegory, chad, you needn’t be snotty to those who can. That sure sounded snotty. While were at it, do you have any evidence that Genesis 1 and 2 were written allegorically rather than being totally made up B.S. by guys who didn’t have a clue? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/33 "2003-09-18T05:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*Where? Behemoth (sp?) and Leviathon (IIRC) aren’t dinosaurs, if that’s what you were referring to. \*\* > [@](#): > > [First, “Behemoth” cannot be a Hippo because of Job 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar”. A hippo has a short tail like a pig. Behemoth, had a large tail shaped like a cedar tree (large and tapered). I believe a better choice is that Behemoth is a Brachiosaurus type of large land dwelling dinosaur. It fits the description perfect.](http://www.bible.ca/tracks/b-dinosaurs-mentioned-in-bible.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/34 "2003-09-18T05:24:43Z")
**JerseyDiamond** , the site you liked to argues that humans and dinosaurs co-existed! I can deal with people saying the Bible is allegory even though I don’t think it was written as such, it’s just an interpretation based on the fact that we have way more data about the world than the authors did. But this page argues > [@](#): > > What is significant about this is that if “Behemoth” and “Leviathan” are dinosaurs, then is it crystal clear that Job had either seen them personally, or there was a recent memory of them. This of course flies in the face of current evolutionary theory. So at the same time, it’s interpreting the Bible literally, interpreting it VERY weirdly (to allow for dinosaurs), and making insane claims about geology, biology, evolution, and history in general. WOW. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/35 "2003-09-18T05:59:40Z")
From **JD’s** link: > [@](#): > > From the description found in Job, scientists have attempted to identify these animals. They believe “Behemoth” is a Hippo and “Leviathan” is a Crocodile. From the description found in Job, scientists have attempted to identify these animals. They believe “Behemoth” is a Hippo and “Leviathan” is a Crocodile. What “scientists” would those be? > [@](#): > > But these scientists limited their choices to non-extinct species and did not consider the possibility of dinosaurs because man and dinosaur never coexisted. Oh really? Yes, really. Any cite which attempts to claim that humans and dinosaurs coexisted is automatically self-discrediting but just to address the substance of your quoted material, it misrepresents what the passage actually says. Job’s description of the behemoth reads as follows: **Job 40: 15-24** (NIV) "Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. 16 What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! 17 **His tail sways like a cedar;** the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. 18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. 19 He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword. 20 The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby. 21 Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh. 22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him. 23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth. 24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose? My Oxford Annotated says that “he makes his tail stiff like a cedar.” No version says that his tail is “large and tapered” or “shaped like” a cedar. It also says the behemoth ate grass and brachiosaurs (which the link claims is behemoth) did _not_ eat grass. Behemoth is a hippo or possibly an elephant. It fits the description and, more importantly, dinosaurs were _extinct_ at the time Job was written. (BTW, I thought YECers believed that dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood. Job takes place _after_ the flood, yet “God” talks about behemoth and leviathan in the present tense. Did some dinosaurs survive the flood in YEC fantasy?) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/36 "2003-09-18T06:10:52Z")
> [@](#): > > What “scientists” would those be? Fred Flintstone, Ph. D. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/37 "2003-09-18T07:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*The basic gist is that the fundamental principles and major details are sound, but there was a great deal of metaphor and poetry going on. \*\* Not in the real world, they’re not! Even metaphorically, the “fundamental principles” and “major details” are as wrong as wrong can be! Hell, even the _order_ in both fables are wrong! The only way to harmonize the “fundamental principles and major details” of Genesis with reality – even metaphorically – is to lie. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/38 "2003-09-18T11:48:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*Meatros: > > Why the euphamism “allegorically?” Why not “totally made up B.S. from guys who didn’t have a clue as to what they were talking about?” \*\* I have to concede that is a possibility. My viewpoints on the matter have changed drastically, so I’m not very sure that I can answer that. Keep in mind, I’m not saying that it should be looked at either way, I just don’t see how it can be taken literally. ---
**Author:** ![rklewis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba8739/32.png) [@rklewis2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rklewis2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/39 "2003-09-18T12:06:00Z")
The whole dinosaur thing means nothing to me (that’s ME, not you)… How many animals are there in the world? How many are mentioned in the bible specifically? Simple answers: A whole lot, and not many. Just because they’re big, doesn’t mean they need to be mentioned above any others. The original poster should not have gotten such an answer as that… Perhaps some might see that as a cop out answer…so be it. As I said, to me, it’s irrellevent. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176/40 "2003-09-18T14:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > do you have any evidence that Genesis 1 and 2 were written allegorically That’s my point, Sparky. No, of course I don’t. Just as you have no evidence it wasn’t. :shrug: I think the early parts of Genesis, like most creation myths, are a combination of BS and allegory. But that’s merely my opinion, and I’m sure your certainty would be unswayed by it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-before-man/202176.md?page=3)