# The "Bible Code" -Is It Real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624 "2006-05-13T13:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/1 "2006-05-13T13:05:45Z")
I saw the show last night about the so-called Bible codes. The claim is that iff you arrange the (Hebrew texts) of the books of the OT in square blocks, then a computer search will reveal words in vertical, horizontal, and angular sequences. Sometimes, words are obtained by skipping 0ne, two , or more letters (such as B,_,_,o,_,_,o,_,_,k, for example). The claim is that several mathematicians and expert code breakers evaluated the work and found it credible. A few thins were NOT explained: -how do you translate the hebrew characters into modern english? -what determines the start and end letters of each block? Can you play around till you find something? -most of the proponents appeared (to me) to be deeply religious Jews-did they have a bias to believe? Finally, the show talked about what was “revealed”-I noticed that there were NO future predictions! I mean, predictinhg the past is one thing-why can’t these people reveal what the codes say about what happens in 2050? Anyway, I was inclined to give this some credibility-but the last point has m bothered! ;j ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/2 "2006-05-13T13:13:45Z")
Straight Dope Staff Report: [What’s up with the " Bible Code"?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbiblecode.html) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/3 "2006-05-13T14:52:44Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > -most of the proponents appeared (to me) to be deeply religious Jews-did they have a bias to believe? You bet they do. For nearly all Orthodox Jews, and for many in other movements, it is an article of faith that the torah today is exactly as given to Moses by G-d. A torah missing a single dot or squiggle is incomplete. A torah with a single word changed is innacurate, blemished, and lesser. Various branches of Kabbalah are dedicated to diving information, predicting the future, etc by working with the torah. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/4 "2006-05-13T14:58:29Z")
I’ve seen these sorts of shows, and I don’t buy it. If the Bible was meant to be a story of humanity and a vehicle for telling us how we should live, then why hide any possibly important messages? It would not make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/5 "2006-05-13T15:05:08Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > why hide any possibly important messages? The standard explanation is that they are hidden so that only the righteous can find them. Otherwise you’d have everybody trying to get the winning lotto numbers, raise golems, produce a low fat fudge cake that doesn’t let you down in the flavor department like so many others, etc. Everybody would fail due to their lack of faith, focus, moral goodness, and we’d end up with something between an episode of I Dream Of Genie and a dystopia filled with demons. I don’t buy the standard explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/6 "2006-05-13T15:16:40Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > we’d end up with something between an episode of I Dream Of Genie and a dystopia filled with demons. That’d be awesome. I don’t buy the bible code either. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/7 "2006-05-13T15:18:37Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > **I** saw the show last night about the so-called Bible codes. The claim is that iff you arrange the (Hebrew texts) of the books of the OT in square bloc > > **k** s, then a computer search will reveal words in vertical, horizontal, and angular sequences. Somet\*\* > i\*\*mes, words are obtained by skipping 0ne, two , or more > **l** etters (such as B,_,_,o,_,_,o,_,_,k, for example). The c > **l** aim is that several mathematicians and > **e** xpert code breakers evaluate > **d** the wor > > **k** and found it credible. A few thins were NOT explain > **e** d:-how do you translate the hebrew characters into moder > **n** english? > -what determines the start and e > **n** d letters of each block? Can you play around till you find som > **e** thing?-most of the proponents appeared (to me) to be > **d** eeply religious Jews-did they have a bias to believe? Finall > **y** , the show talked about what was “revealed” > I noticed that there were NO future predictions! I mean, predictinhg the past is one thing-why can’t these people reveal what the codes say about what happens in 2050? > Anyway, I was inclined to give this some credibility-but the last point has m bothered! ;j So it was YOU in the grassy knoll. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/8 "2006-05-13T15:21:02Z")
_The Bible Code_ is the biggest load of cobblers I’ve ever had the misfortune to read.\* That anyone in the Israeli government gave this bloke the time of day leaves me scratching my head, and I’m especially dubious about his proposition that he predicted Rabin’s assassination, or Sharon paying him any attention. Utter, utter twaddle, and I’m surprised the OP was “inclined to give [it] some credibility”. \*The second being _The Da Vinci Code_. However, to prove I’m not biased against books with ‘Code’ in the title, I did like _The Code Book_. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/9 "2006-05-13T15:21:17Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The standard explanation is that they are hidden so that only the righteous can find them. Otherwise you’d have everybody trying to get the winning lotto numbers, raise golems, produce a low fat fudge cake that doesn’t let you down in the flavor department like so many others, etc. Everybody would fail due to their lack of faith, focus, moral goodness, and we’d end up with something between an episode of I Dream Of Genie and a dystopia filled with demons. > > I don’t buy the standard explanation. But it isn’t the righteous who need the guidance. It isn’t the already good people who need any sort of “saving”. On the other hand, the ability to raise golems would be cool. Mine could do the yard work, clean the windows, all that stuff 😃 ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/10 "2006-05-13T15:31:49Z")
To see just how stupid the whole code business is: I was in a bookstore about a year ago, and saw a paperback called something like “The NEW Bible code”, with a cover promising good, sexy hints about nuclear war predicted for 2006 So I browsed through it–(after all, if I gonna get nuked soon, I wanna know about it advance so I can eat all that chocoate that the doctor tells me to avoid) One page of the book proudly showed how “true” the code is, because it predicted the results of the 2000 elections. They printed the Hebrew letters showing “Al Gore” crossed diagonally with the Hebrew word “lose”. sounds neat, right? Except they forgot that some people (like me) can read Hebrew. So I noticed that the word “Al” also crossed hroizontally with the Hebrew letters “aluph”, which means “commander-in-chief.” (Aluph is the Hebrew form of the Greek word “Alpha”) so there you have it–“proof” !!The bible code accurately predicted that Al Gore is both the loser and the winner of the elections. (sorry, I dont have a cite, 'cause I wasnt willing to waste my money buying the book.) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/11 "2006-05-13T15:31:58Z")
**SteveG1** The guidance is pretty out in the open. There are seven laws given to Noah that all humans are expected to follow. Later on, two different versions of the ten commandments are given. Jews get 613 commandments in total. While the average person might not be clear on how the command not to yoke a steer and an oxen together is relevant today, commandments not to steal, lie, and repeated instructions to house the homeless and feed the poor are pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/12 "2006-05-13T17:01:58Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > On the other hand, the ability to raise golems would be cool. Mine could do the yard work, clean the windows, all that stuff 😃 Just don’t make it work on the Sabbath! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/13 "2006-05-13T17:11:47Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > On the other hand, the ability to raise golems would be cool. Mine could do the yard work, clean the windows, all that stuff 😃 But sooner or later, it would go on a rampage and _KILL US ALL_. . . Well, kill _you_ all; I’m out of range. [MST3K]He tampered in God’s domain[/MST3K] ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/14 "2006-05-13T19:08:39Z")
\*The Bible Code \* is as real as [_The Moby Dick Code_](http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html). ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/15 "2006-05-15T08:57:24Z")
Yes it is absolutely real. You can take a chunk of text (any will do) and play about with it and find words, and find ways to string them together in a way that means something to you. You really can do this. With any chunk of text. Is that what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/16 "2006-05-15T19:52:47Z")
The Bible Code as presented in the popular book(s) by Drosnin contains expansions of an original statistical study, by Elihu Rips and Doron Witzum and that was good enough to be published in a peer-reviewed journal of statistical mathematics. While the original study definitely has room for criticism (and I’ll go so far as to say those critics have a point), it is not nearly as absurd as what many of the comments in this thread suggest. The pop-culture-ization of the phenomenon by Michael Drosnin expanded on the original model and this has opened up the concept to the kind of ridicule you see above in this thread. That shouldn’t be confused, however, with the Rips & Witzum study. That said, I will answer the following questions posed by the OP: > [@](#): > > -how do you translate the hebrew characters into modern english? You don’t. The theory is that since the Torah (Pentateuch, Five Books of Moses)was (According to Orthodox Jews) dictated, letter-for-letter, by G-d, anything hidden in the sequence of the lettering would have been placed there deliberately. To translate the text would invalidate that. In fact, the method (as originally conceived) is not even usable on the other (Prophetic or Divine Writings) portiona of the Holy Scriptures, because human interpretation plays a part in the phrasing. > [@](#): > > -what determines the start and end letters of each block? Can you play around till you find something? Pretty much. The “blocks” are there just for ease of display. The search field is the entire Torah, and what you see as vertical or angular blocks are simply sequences of letters at fixed distances. When the author finds several such encoded sequences relevant to one another in a small area of text, he’ll snip the beginning and ending of that area and present it as the neatest possible block for publication. > [@](#): > > -most of the proponents appeared (to me) to be deeply religious Jews-did they have a bias to believe? Yes. [quote] Finally, the show talked about what was “revealed”-I noticed that there were NO future predictions! I mean, predictinhg the past is one thing-why can’t these people reveal what the codes say about what happens in 2050? [quote] Because they’re trying to prove something, so to make statements about the distant future has the predictive effect of talking about heaven and hell. In addition, when that future comes to pass, there may very well be some new element in the situation surrounding the predicted event which would change the whole interpretation…and heck, maybe that name itself appears in the code, but no one knew to look for it! The original study didn’t predict events, it predicted that certain encoded words (and encoded in a very specific way, that could only exist once in the text) would be found in close proximity to one another. While the validity of the study can be and is disputed, it certainly made predictions - statistical predictions - that the study needed to prove true. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/17 "2006-05-15T20:10:32Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > then a computer search will reveal words in vertical, horizontal, and angular sequences. Finding words in horizontal sequences isn’t hard, is it? After all, it’s text. Also, angular sequences are just a different form of vertical sequences. If you take every 18th letter (for instance), then taking every 19th letter is going to form a diagonal. So is taking every 17th letter. IOW, angular sequences are another form of cheating. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/18 "2006-05-16T01:28:14Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The standard explanation is that they are hidden so that only the righteous can find them. Otherwise you’d have everybody trying to get the winning lotto numbers, raise golems, produce a low fat fudge cake that doesn’t let you down in the flavor department like so many others, etc. Everybody would fail due to their lack of faith, focus, moral goodness, and we’d end up with something between an episode of I Dream Of Genie and a dystopia filled with demons. > I don’t buy the standard explanation. AFAIAC The Bible sets forth the principles for all men to live by. The N.T. in particular establishes The Golden Rule which mankind, in general, has turned into the farsical Do it unto to others before they do it unto you! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/19 "2006-05-16T11:23:12Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I k.i.l.l.e.d k.e.n.n.e.d.y > > So it was YOU in the grassy knoll. Brilliant. Well said 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624/20 "2006-05-16T22:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] The Bible Code as presented in the popular book(s) by Drosnin contains expansions of an original statistical study, by Elihu Rips and Doron Witzum and that was good enough to be published in a peer-reviewed journal of statistical mathematics. While the original study definitely has room for criticism (and I’ll go so far as to say those critics have a point), it is not nearly as absurd as what many of the comments in this thread suggest. The pop-culture-ization of the phenomenon by Michael Drosnin expanded on the original model and this has opened up the concept to the kind of ridicule you see above in this thread. That shouldn’t be confused, however, with the Rips & Witzum study. That said, I will answer the following questions posed by the OP: You don’t. The theory is that since the Torah (Pentateuch, Five Books of Moses)was (According to Orthodox Jews) dictated, letter-for-letter, by G-d, anything hidden in the sequence of the lettering would have been placed there deliberately. To translate the text would invalidate that. In fact, the method (as originally conceived) is not even usable on the other (Prophetic or Divine Writings) portiona of the Holy Scriptures, because human interpretation plays a part in the phrasing. Pretty much. The “blocks” are there just for ease of display. The search field is the entire Torah, and what you see as vertical or angular blocks are simply sequences of letters at fixed distances. When the author finds several such encoded sequences relevant to one another in a small area of text, he’ll snip the beginning and ending of that area and present it as the neatest possible block for publication. Yes. [quote] Finally, the show talked about what was “revealed”-I noticed that there were NO future predictions! I mean, predictinhg the past is one thing-why can’t these people reveal what the codes say about what happens in 2050? > [@](#): > > Because they’re trying to prove something, so to make statements about the distant future has the predictive effect of talking about heaven and hell. In addition, when that future comes to pass, there may very well be some new element in the situation surrounding the predicted event which would change the whole interpretation…and heck, maybe that name itself appears in the code, but no one knew to look for it! > > The original study didn’t predict events, it predicted that certain encoded words (and encoded in a very specific way, that could only exist once in the text) would be found in close proximity to one another. While the validity of the study can be and is disputed, it certainly made predictions - statistical predictions - that the study needed to prove true. Thanks for the info, Chaim\> I am interested in the finding of the names (and birthdates) of the Lithuanian rabbis, found in the text. Clearly, that was NOT a prediction, but the fining of these names and dates must be statistically significant. Anyway, since the coded statements must always be hebrew words, does the translation (into english) change the contents or meanings? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-code-is-it-real/356624.md?page=2)