# THE "BIBLE" Created or Evolved **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2000, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082 "2000-04-26T04:14:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/1 "2000-04-26T04:14:00Z")
My Apologies this is directed to an existing thread to which I have been unable to respond directly I would like to state the Following 1 - I believe that there is GOD 2 - I believe that the Universe was created\* and has a design and ultimate purpose \*(Caused to be by forces outside of this physical reality) 3- I believe that sentient / intelligent life is a special unique product of the universe endowed with a spark of the divine 4 - I believe that I posses within me a part of that divine spark. Therefore I am compelled out of respect and love for items 1 thru 3 to conduct myself in a certain (moral if you will) manner. 5 - I believe that all Humans are similarly endowed. The above points are given only as a prelude. Author Topic: The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. pashley Member Posts: 248 Registered: Sep 1999 posted 04-19-2000 11:46 AM 1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaneously come to be with a causing agent) 2)The cosmos began to exist. 3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God) Arguments? * * * Patrick Ashley Mr Ashley, While my stated beliefs may appear to be in agreement with you they are in opposition to your implied conclusions. Please answer the following direct questions. I would like to know what is your basis for placing so much FAITH in your bible. Please do not give me it is the written word of God therefore routine. I would like to know by what gift of intellect / revelation , process of investigation has led you to accept your bible as the only source of GOD. Part 1 of 4 * * * I believe in neither the Religion of Science nor the Science of Religion ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/2 "2000-04-26T04:20:00Z")
Part 2 of 4 Why have you sought to limit / define / own and control God? That you must certainly do by ignoring the possibility of GOD being something other than what you believe and thus outside of your ability to influence (why else continual state Jesus is the only way)? Why have you placed the wonder and majesty of the Universe into a shell? Why is it necessary to separate the spiritual and material realms. Could they not be connected in some manner we do not understand. This existence perhaps is a transition stage with neither beginning nor end (constant flux / equilibrium)? Why have you decided that the value of sentient life is but a mere addendum to your belief structure. (All have sinned and if you are not like me you are going to Hell)? My reaction is Not because of what you state but rather the fact that the source of authority that you presume entails you to such liberties is based on a wholly unnatural constructed (if you will evolved) document. I hold that your bible ( yes I know this is a blanket statement as there are countless versions) contains within its writings some very profound spiritual thoughts that have been buried beneath so many layers of obvious after the fact manipulation they are hardly recognizable. What are your thoughts / fellings on [http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html](http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html) God and Evolution Copyright © 1994-1998 by Warren Kurt VonRoeschlaub Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution For It Involves Conception of Man Pope John Paul II Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences October 22, 1996 [http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html](http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html) ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/3 "2000-04-26T04:32:00Z")
## Part 3 of 4 Spiritus Mundi posted 04-19-2000 Everything that exists must have had a cause. That cause is God. God doesn’t have to follow rule 1 because that would lead to uncomfortable thoughts. [paraphrase] Arguments that follow the form of mine but question the primacy of god are flawed. [/paraphrase] My comment? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. The above response in my optinion questions the integrty of the orginal poster by implying (Pashley) was less than honest in his reaction to a flippant but none the less valid observation… “DO NOT BOTHER ME WITH FACTS MY MIND IS MADE UP” OUTLOOK my general question is why is it necessary to close one’s mind to other view points in order to have FAITH. Sorry to be so verbose I am NEW : part 4 will be coming eventually ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/4 "2000-04-26T05:46:00Z")
**The Jackel** : Just letting you know that Mr. Ashley might have trouble answering you here. He has been banned.(See “The Goliath Cometh” thread) Sorry to interrupt. Peace ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2000, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/5 "2000-04-30T20:02:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > **The Jackel** : > Just letting you know that Mr. Ashley might have trouble answering you here. He has been banned.(See “The Goliath Cometh” thread) > Peace > \*\* Actually I am sorry to learn of that … I was hoping for a chance to gain insight … however I think I can still explore the basis of the controversy without quite so much passion and a little more honest exchange of ideas… thank you for the information ( Hmm you probably won’t see this ) ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/6 "2000-05-01T06:46:05Z")
Hello **The Jackel**. Yes I saw it. I try to read the threads that I have posted in. This is going to be harder now that the threads that I have visited are not stored in my cookies. But, I will continue to try. ## Sorry your questions are going unanswered. I hope you have started another thread. You might try asking this over at the Left Behind Message Board. I hear there are lots of Christians over there. Sorry I don’t know the address, or I would link you. You could run a search for it. If that doesn’t work you could try asking **Satan**. He is a member. Really. Just ask nicely. 😉 Good Luck ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/7 "2000-05-01T12:09:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > You might try asking this over at the Left Behind Message Board…Sorry I don’t know the address, or I would link you > \*\* [http://www.leftbehind.com/](http://www.leftbehind.com/) I don’t think I’ll go back there… they scare me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PreacherMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce73a5/32.png) [@PreacherMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PreacherMan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/8 "2000-05-01T13:57:04Z")
Really, there’s no reason to be scared. In fact, they’re probably more scared of you than you are of them. Since this seems to be a meandering thread - perhaps soon to be list - this may be a fruitless effort, but… Jackal, mi amigo, I’d be willing to try to answer some of your questions. I am a semi-professional so I will have some insider insight, but I cannot pretend to answer as a fundamentalist. So, unfortunately for you (and those reading), you won’t be able to illicit a deeply offended and unintentionally funny response by asking honest questions. I would ask that we kind of reframe the thread to make sure we’re all clear on the discussion at hand. If we’re talking about the existance of God, that’s one question. If we’re talking about the primacy of Scripture, that’s another. The two are clearly deopendent upon one another, but trying to answer these two questions has occupied theologians, philosophers, and layfolks for more than two thousand years now, so I thought we could start with more attainable goals. Since the post title refers to the Bible, I thought I’d start there. Is the Bible the WORD OF GOD? Yes. And No. God can and does speak to God’s people through Scripture, but God did not sit down one day, write the Bible and hand it down. Nor did God have the writing of SCripture outsourced. What we have is a community’s response to the action of God in their lives. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of folks have had their hand in the writing over the millenia. This is the work of a community over time. Which is exactly why I hold it to be Scripture. Revelation of God’s Word does not happen magically to one person. It happens over time through a community. The hand of the community in preserving, editing, clarifying and adding to the writing is precisely why it is to be valued and acknowledged as Holy. Now, why do more fundamentalist folks than me get all hebby-geeby when you start asking questions? Because, I think, they have very little to hold on to. If you want to take the Bible literally as the Inerrant Word of God, you fine all the way until the second chapter of Genesis. Then things go downhill in a hurry. Jackal, you probably get lots of “Because God told me so” responses because that’s what folks know. That’s all they got. OK, I’ve rambled quite (in)effectively here, with no promise that anyone’s even going to be interested in pusuing this topic. But, Jackal, if you - or anyone else - is interested, I’d ceratinly be willing to continue discussing. Shalom. ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/9 "2000-05-01T14:58:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Subject line: THE “BIBLE” Created or Evolved The bible definitely evolved. Before Christ, there was just the Old Testament. Since then, there have been many different translations, the Catholic bible has different books than the Protestant bible, and so on. You will have a hard time convincing me that the bible has been created by God and has not evolved over time. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/10 "2000-05-01T15:14:34Z")
My beliefs would appear to be similar to Jackal’s. I believe in a Creator God … and that there is an element of ‘holiness’ within each person that ties back to that Creator God, which should compel us to treat others as we would wish to be treated. I do not believe that it is all over when we die here. I am also a Christian - I think. I believe there is some historical evidence that an amazing man called Jesus did some pretty amazing stuff about 2,000 years ago, and at the very least started a new religious movement that people saw as of great benefit to their existences. It stretches credulity for me that, at that time when communication was so primitive, four men, in four different places, at four different times, wrote chronicles of Jesus’s life and actions that were so similar. However, I also am a doubter of the entire Bible As Word of God. PreacherMan said: > [@](#): > > The hand of the community in preserving, editing, clarifying and adding to the writing is precisely why it is to be valued and acknowledged as Holy. What bothers me about that is, it asks me to suspend what I know about human nature and history. Are you saying that there is no possibility that any of the post-Gospel additions or alterations of the Bible were done out of the self-interests of the modifier? That the alterations weren’t done as a means of attempting to control the population being ruled, without the cost and logistical problems of having armies stationed everywhere? Can you acknowledge that The Catholic Church did some pretty horrendous things in the name of God for a great many centuries long ago? If you can, can you also acknowledge that at the time those evils were perpetrated, the evil-doers were responsible for translating (i.e., modifying, altering and adding to) the Bible? Also, PreacherMan, it has been my experience that most organized Christian religions aren’t very comfortable with “editing, clarifying or adding to” their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/11 "2000-05-01T16:45:09Z")
I think the question is two-fold. 1.) Has the text been edited, modified, mis-copied, etc. 2.) Have the interpretations of others marred the original texts. The answer to the first question, for me, is YES. It would be impossible for that not to have happened. My answer to the second question is no. Surly, some _translations_ have been ‘personalized’ and dogmatized. However there is such a derth of early manuscripts (\>5,000) that surely the original words of the non-extant autographs have been preserved. The problem (as correctly stated elsewhere) is what words are added to the originals. This is an excerpt from ‘Answers to Tough Questions’ by Josh McDowell. > [@](#): > > A common misconception is that the text of the Bible has not come down to us the way in which it was originally written. Accusations abound of zealous monks changing the biblical text throughout Church history. This issue is of the utmost importance, since an altered text would do grave damage to the credibility of the story. > > As F. F. Bruce says, “The historical ‘once-for-all-ness’ of Christianity which distinguishes it from those religious and philosophical systems, which are not specially related to any particular time, makes the reliability of the writings which purport to record this revelation a question of first-rate importance” (The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? p. 8). > > Fortunately, the problem is not a lack of evidence. There are three different types of evidence that are to be used in evaluating the New Testament text. These are the Greek manuscripts, the various versions in which the New Testament is translated, and the writings of the Church fathers. > > The New Testament was originally composed in the Greek language. There are approximately 5,500 copies in existence that contain all or part of the New Testament. Although we do not possess the originals, copies exist from a very early date. > > The New Testament was written from about a.d. 50 to a.d. 90. The earliest fragment (p. 52) dates about a.d. 120, with about fifty other fragments dating within 150–200 years from the time of composition. > > Two major manuscripts, Codex Vaticanus (a.d. 325) and Codex Sinaiticus (a.d. 350), a complete copy, date within 250 years of the time of composition. This may seem like a long time span, but it is minimal compared to most ancient works. > > The earliest copy of Caesar’s The Gallic Wars dates 1,000 years after it was written, and the first complete copy of the Odyssey by Homer dates 2,200 years after it was written. When the interval between the writing of the New Testament and earliest copies is compared to other ancient works, the New Testament proves to be much closer to the time of the original. > > The 5,500 copies are far and away the most we have of any ancient work. Many ancient writings have been transmitted to us by only a handful of manuscripts (Catullus—three copies; the earliest one is 1,600 years after he wrote; Herodotus—eight copies and 1,300 years). > > Not only do the New Testament documents have more manuscript evidence and close time interval between the writing and earliest copy, but they were also translated into several other languages at an early date. Translation of a document into another language was rare in the ancient world, so this is an added plus for the New Testament. > > The number of copies of the versions is in excess of 18,000, with possibly as many as 25,000. This is further evidence that helps us establish the New Testament text. > > Even if we did not possess the 5,500 Greek manuscripts or the 18,000 copies of the versions, the text of the New Testament could still be reproduced within 250 years from its composition. How? By the writings of the early Christians. In commentaries, letters, etc., these ancient writers quote the biblical text, thus giving us another witness to the text of the New Testament. > > John Burgon has catalogued more than 86,000 citations by the early church fathers who cite different parts of the New Testament. Thus we observe that there is so much more evidence for the reliability of the New Testament text than any other comparable writings in the ancient world. > > F. F. Bruce makes the following observation: “ **The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning.** ” > > He also states, “ **And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt** ” (The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? p. 15). > > Sir Frederic Kenyon, former director and principal librarian of the British Museum, was one of the foremost experts on ancient manuscripts and their authority. Shortly before his death, he wrote this concerning the New Testament: “**The interval between the dates of original composition (of the New Testament) and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established**” (The Bible and Archaeology, pp. 288-89). > > _Josh McDowell, Answers to tough questions: Skeptics ask about the Christian faith © 1997, 1993 by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart_. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/12 "2000-05-01T18:39:00Z")
Navigator is right, the Bible is a living text. The one in your house is only the latest edition of generations of translations that span cultural differences, language, and probably just some good mistakes. How important is it to not paraphrase God? Well…considering the Bible is the word of God and must be followed to the letter (because that’s the level it is preached) I’d say everyone has it wrong. Try and convince me that a 2000 year old text translated from Hebrew to Greek to Old German to Middle English and then New English along two millenia of political upheaval (where cesorship was rampant) and cultural Grand Canyons abound and the EXACT word of God was intact…uh huh. Tell it to the newbies. ---
**Author:** ![johnpope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@johnpope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpope)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/13 "2000-05-01T20:24:04Z")
I’ve seen a lot of references to Thomas Jefferson’s edited version of the bible. Does anyone know exactly which books he modified, and why he bothered? ---
**Author:** ![neuro-trash\_grrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ab097/32.png) [@neuro-trash\_grrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neuro-trash_grrrl)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/14 "2000-05-01T23:03:12Z")
Well, if the Bible evolved, where is the fossil record? Where are the intermediate forms? Where is the missing link? You biblical evolutionists have a lot of explaining to do. And to think, they teach this stuff in schools… Sorry, couldn’t resist. Anyway, a useful exercize here would be a bit of comparative religion. Take the Koran. It was dictated to Mohammed by Allah (or rather Gabriel, Allah’s secretary), over a period of a few decades. There were many witnesses to its writing of the Word, (if not the actual reception of the Word), and the text was codified and standardized very shortly after Mohammed’s death. The text itself says that the Koran is the last word on the subject, as Mohammed was the “Seal of the Prophets”, and what you see is what you get. Salman Rushdie notwithstanding, there is little reason to believe that the Koran is not the word of God as one man percieved it. The Bible, on the other hand, has its origins wayyyyy back in the mists of prehistory with the Semitic tribes of the Fertile Crescent, the myths and legends of which, combined with a Sumerian influence, provided the basis of the Five Books of Moses, with various other histories, genealogies, prophecies, stories, and personal accounts being added on through the generations, until we reach the Gospels, the Acts, and the Epistles. Then we see the translations and re-translations that accrue over time, until we have The Bible, as we, the English speakers of the world, know it. So, we have two books claiming to be the revealed word of God, but where one is most explicitly the revealed word, the other is a mysterious pastiche of odds and ends. In the latter, God works in mysterious ways. In the former, he most assuredly does not. Which is more valid? Who can say? The Koran can be dismissed as the ravings of a paranoid schizophrenic, and the Bible can be dismissed as irrelevant cultural ramblings. On the other hand, if God does truly work in mysterious ways, perhaps the Bible as we know it, warts and all, is the correct word of God, and all these years, he’s been refining it, perfecting it, and the latest generation is the best yet. I’m not entirely sure what I’m trying to say here, but I’m not entirely sure what the OP asks. A basis for faith in the Bible? Putting God in a box? We’ve been through all that before. I guess I’m just trying to get inside the heads of the believers over the centuries and find validity in their respective texts. While I myself do not believe, the matter is not something I can dismiss out of hand. Then again, perhaps I’m just rambling, but if so, I’m in good company. P.S. Jackel, whatever happened to part 4? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/15 "2000-05-02T01:03:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > It stretches credulity for me that, at that time when communication was so primitive, four men, in four different places, at four different times, wrote chronicles of Jesus’s life and actions that were so similar. > \*\* Indeed it would, if there wasn’t evidence that they knew of each others work, and that the later gospels were heavily derived from the former. I understand that there are various theories about this,(two gospels, Q, etc), and some quick searching turned up this interesting web site covering [articles related to the Synoptic Gospels](http://www.hivolda.no/asf/kkf/biblia02.html#synoptic) and the [Synoptic Problem Home Page](http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/index.html) concerned with the relationships between the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Sigh. So many web pages, so little time to goof off from work. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/16 "2000-05-03T04:13:18Z")
Sorry I had abandoned this Thread :o … So to re-cap and respond… My original intent was basically Four fold. 1 - To offer and defend my particular beliefs, while hopefully engaging in honest respectful communication. 2- To look at the Bible in an analytical manner not to discredit it or anyone but merely to try and understand if those questions I raise are valid / reasonable. 3 - To some degree gain knowledge / wisdom / insight / experience (3a in particular why the passion of someone’s belief leads them to actions that are in apparent contradiction to their stated principles). 4- I also had the mistaken idea that a new voice / presence might act as a mediating factor to give Mr Ashley, an opportunity to see through another’s eyes. In that regard I apologize for the somewhat aggressive tone of the OP. Now to move forward in general while I agree with the majority of what has been posted … I do have some additional comments and questions … Unfortunately I have limited time so excuse the choppiness * * * neuro-trash grrrlWell, if the Bible evolved, where is the fossil record? Where are the intermediate forms? Where is the missing link? You biblical evolutionists have a lot of explaining to do. And to think, they teach this stuff in schools… The Bible, on the other hand, has its origins wayyyyy back in the mists of prehistory with the Semitic tribes of the Fertile Crescent, the myths and legends of which, combined with a Sumerian influence, provided the basis of the Five Books of Moses, with various other histories, genealogies, prophecies, stories, and personal accounts being added on through the generations Sorry, couldn’t resist. douglips Subject line: THE “BIBLE” Created or Evolved The bible definitely evolved. You will have a hard time convincing me that the bible has been created by God and has not evolved over time. ## Milossarian. What bothers me about that is, it asks me to suspend what I know about human nature and history. All agree with my general feeling yet come from entirely different outlooks why is it that what seems so obvious cannot be considered a valid inquiry without being somehow disrespectful… For example the existence of the so-called Fifth Gospel (Q) was something I was led to regard as sort of an ancient version of an Urban Legend . My general question(s) to you three and others. How do / did you separate the reluctance to believe/ accept from youthful rebellion, and other emotions? How did you deal with the pressure to do (believe) “The Right” thing, be a “Good” person. How do you reject the theology without somehow rejecting Family/Friends, good works etc. How do you deal with the guilt trips? * * * PreacherMan Now, why do more fundamentalist folks than me get all hebby-geeby when you start asking questions? Jackal, you probably get lots of “Because God told me so” responses… ## Shalom. Gotta Go as I said really rushed right now … I thank everyone who has posted on this ( and other related subjects / threads). {Habit I have become conditioned to always say thank you). There is lots of good material here that will take me a while to digest …😃 ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/17 "2000-05-03T11:47:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > God works in mysterious ways. Which is more valid? Who can say? The Koran can be dismissed as the ravings of a paranoid schizophrenic, and the Bible can be dismissed as irrelevant cultural ramblings. perhaps the Bible as we know it, is the correct word of God… > > A basis for faith in the Bible? Putting God in a box? I guess I’m just trying to get inside the heads of the believers over the centuries and find validity in their respective texts …the matter is not something I can dismiss out of hand. Then again, perhaps I’m just rambling, but if so, I’m in good company. > > P.S. Jackel, whatever happened to part 4? > \*\* That sums it up nicely … I am trying to understand not only those believers (and the texts) throught out the centuries but(more importantly for me) the reactions of those of today. (This was sort of my part 4) In Judges 11 , Jephthah vows to God to sacrifice the first thing that comes out of his house when he returns home if God will give him victory over the Ammonites _(vs 30 -31)_. The result is that his daughter is offered up as a burnt sacrifice. My question was, how could God allow this to happen especially in light of Abraham / Isaac and the commandment against putting your children through the fire (to sacrifice humans). While the fact of it being accepted [i}(vs 38-40) _in ancient times is troubling enough. I was totally confused / disappointed that others were basically willing to overlook the lack of any censure/ rebuke within the scriptures. I have attempted to question Christians but the answers always start from the point of that is exactely how it happend and God has \*\* HIS (??)_\* reasons for allowing it. What I can not seem to communicate is that I am not questioning God in the ultimate sense, but rather that perhaps we are totaly missing the nature of how /why things got in the bible and how we are intended to look at the document. I have been told “my that sounds like at best idle speculation and at worst gross aggrogance (so you know more than everyone who came before you)and blasphemy”. ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/18 "2000-05-03T11:52:11Z")
The previous reply was in response to neuro-trash grrrl sorry I did not include that in the orginal… ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2000, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-created-or-evolved/18082/19 "2000-05-13T18:52:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* Indiretly also to Apollyon > > Really, there’s no reason to be scared. In fact, they’re probably more scared of you than you are of them. > > God can and does speak to God’s people through Scripture, but God did not sit down one day, write the Bible and hand it down. Nor did God have the writing of SCripture outsourced. What we have is a community’s response to the action of God in their lives. This is the work of a community over time. > > . The hand of the community in preserving, editing, clarifying and adding to the writing is precisely why it is to be valued and acknowledged as Holy. > Shalom. > \*\* Thanks Posting this more to acknowledge the input … I actually found The LeftBehind site useful / interesting I have only been reading have not posted… I have spent some time reading Frontline Text for programs on Christianity / Judaism / Islam etc : the Jefferson sites led me to some interesting sidetracks (The Portable Thomas Jefferson / M Peterson)… I am also reading Ann Pagels book on the Gnostic Gospels … There are also several (more) active threads on this board that are providing additional guidelines…