# The Bible Questions its Own Veracity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2008, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953 "2008-11-16T03:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/1 "2008-11-16T03:34:10Z")
So I came across this passage in Jeremiah, one of the major prophets. God says: [How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%208:8;&version=31;) Isn’t this the uber contradiction that put every passage supposedly written by Moses into question. And doesn’t it suggest that there is no guarantee that the bible is the word of God ? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/2 "2008-11-16T03:41:24Z")
The passage is the standard complaint regarding lawyers that we still see, today. Paraphrased: How can you say “We are wise, having the Law of the Lord” when the lawyers constantly twist the law to their own purposes. I make no argument that the bible must be true, but this passage completely fails to assert the contrary. (Remeber, the tradition that would have been extant at the time of Jeremiah would have been that the Law was written entirely by Moses, not by some later authors; the word scribes refers to those who interpreted the laws in the enforcement of contracts.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/3 "2008-11-16T04:01:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (Remeber, the tradition that would have been extant at the time of Jeremiah would have been that the Law was written entirely by Moses, not by some later authors; the word scribes refers to those who interpreted the laws in the enforcement of contracts.) You are ignoring the fact that the deteriorating old testament works had to be constantly transcribed by the scribes and this aspect of their role in Israelite society involved the quoted “pens” or rather “lying pens”. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/4 "2008-11-16T10:49:43Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You are ignoring the fact that the deteriorating old testament works had to be constantly transcribed by the scribes and this aspect of their role in Israelite society involved the quoted “pens” or rather “lying pens”. The need for transcription may be a fact, but it’s your own interpretation that this is what “lying pens” refers to. It _might_ mean “These documents have been transcribed incorrectly”, but that’s not the only plausible meaning. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/5 "2008-11-16T15:44:16Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You are ignoring the fact that the deteriorating old testament works had to be constantly transcribed by the scribes and this aspect of their role in Israelite society involved the quoted “pens” or rather “lying pens”. You are right: I am ignoring it. That is because _1)_ the final redaction of the Law (despite the attribution to Moses) was only a few years old at the time of Jeremiah, meaning that there would not have been lots of tattered old scrolls for lots of unscrupulous copyists to transcribe and _2)_ I have never found any commentators that gave the passage that particular reading. There was a brief attempt by a few scholars to claim that this passage indicated that Jeremiah condemned the Deuteronomist’s redaction of the Law, but that theory has been long rejected. At any rate, you have created a contradiction. If the book condemns itself as having been corrupted, then we cannot accept its word that it is corrupted. However, if we accept that the book has been corrupted, we must acknowledge that this passage might be a portion that has been corrupted, meaning that the passage carries no weight. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/6 "2008-11-16T16:05:51Z")
The Bible says “The Bible is all lies!”. Sounds even better in the original Cretan. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/7 "2008-11-16T19:15:19Z")
[Titus 1:12](http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=Cretan&searchtype=all&version1=31&bookset=10): > [@](#): > > Even one of their own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/8 "2008-11-16T19:46:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > At any rate, you have created a contradiction. If the book condemns itself as having been corrupted, then we cannot accept its word that it is corrupted. However, if we accept that the book has been corrupted, we must acknowledge that this passage might be a portion that has been corrupted, meaning that the passage carries no weight. 😉 Or, the question of biblical infallibility has been answered. Interesting how the King James Version has scribed it differently > [@](#): > > How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/9 "2008-11-16T20:00:22Z")
The King James Version uses different phrasing – naturally, since it is a different translation – but I don’t see how it is substantially different. Nor do I see how it necessitates your particular interpretation of this passage, **Dutchman**. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/10 "2008-11-16T20:06:56Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Or, the question of biblical infallibility has been answered. The factual accuracy of every statement in the bible was answered, (and not in the affirmative), a very long time ago. In fact, biblical inerrancy is a minority position among Christians, (although it seems to have more adherents in the U.S., (and possibly Canada?), than in the rest of the world). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/11 "2008-11-16T20:33:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The factual accuracy of every statement in the bible was answered, (and not in the affirmative), a very long time ago. In fact, biblical inerrancy is a minority position among Christians, (although it seems to have more adherents in the U.S., (and possibly Canada?), than in the rest of the world). With regard to facts, and for a majority of Christians and Jews yes, but questions of biblical law including the passages relating to homosexuality are still debated around here. It is significant to me that when dealing with the condemnation of homosexuality that Israelite homophobic scribes may well have altered the original texts.Pure conjecture on my part, I agree, but worthy of mention. The question of altering texts must have been well known by the 1st century. John had this to say upon the completion of his book “Revelations” > [@](#): > > warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/12 "2008-11-16T21:06:09Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > With regard to facts, and for a majority of Christians and Jews yes, but questions of biblical law including the passages relating to homosexuality are still debated around here. It is significant to me that when dealing with the condemnation of homosexuality that Israelite homophobic scribes may well have altered the original texts. Pure conjecture on my part, I agree, but worthy of mention. Why is pure conjecture on your part worthy of mention? What’s your grounds, apart from “I wish the Bible didn’t say this, so I’m going to assume it is a redaction”? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/13 "2008-11-17T01:03:58Z")
Is there anywhere in the Biblical texts themselves where a claim of inerrancy is actually made? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/14 "2008-11-17T12:36:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The passage is the standard complaint regarding lawyers that we still see, today. > > Paraphrased: How can you say “We are wise, having the Law of the Lord” when the lawyers constantly twist the law to their own purposes. > > I make no argument that the bible must be true, but this passage completely fails to assert the contrary. (Remeber, the tradition that would have been extant at the time of Jeremiah would have been that the Law was written entirely by Moses, not by some later authors; the word scribes refers to those who interpreted the laws in the enforcement of contracts.) How can anyone know what Moses wrote when Historians can find no historical proof of him except in the Torah. I knew a Jewish doctor who said he thought they meant a man by the name of Meses. If Moses was raised by a Pharoh’s daughter it would have been written down by the Egyptians as they wrote most things down about the Pharohs or their household? Monavis ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/15 "2008-11-17T14:03:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Is there anywhere in the Biblical texts themselves where a claim of inerrancy is actually made? No not really. There are a few passages that those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible always point to. > [@](#): > > 2 Tim3:15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. > [@](#): > > 2 PETER 1:20-21 NIV > 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. > 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. > [@](#): > > 1 THESSALONIANS 2:13 NKJ > 13 . . . when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. Of course none of these passages are talking about the Bible. When the opportunity arises I point out to Christians that nothing in the Bible declares there would ever be one final be all end all book of inspired instructions from God. Latter days Saints agree with me:) Even a cursory study of how we got the Bible reveals it was a group of men who decided which of the many writings being circulated would be canonized They made their choices in part based on the doctrine they wanted to support and whether a particular writing agreed with them. There simply isn’t any legitimate reason other than tradition to grant the Bible any more authority than any other book. I’ve felt inspired when reading the Bible. I’ve also felt inspired when reading the Book of Mormon, Baha’i writings, Buddhist text, great novels, listening to music, standing on a mountaintop, looking at the northern lights. or witnessing an act of love and compassion. Whatever inspiration is, my experience is it springs from within, and external stimulus, including so called holy writings, are secondary. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/16 "2008-11-17T14:07:57Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You are ignoring the fact that the deteriorating old testament works had to be constantly transcribed by the scribes and this aspect of their role in Israelite society involved the quoted “pens” or rather “lying pens”. Aside from that text Biblical scholars such as Bart Ehrman provide lots of examples of how scribes changed the text as it passed through time and several hands. [Misquoting Jesus](http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170) is a very good layman’s book on the subject. The evidence is pretty strong. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/17 "2008-11-17T14:20:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > No not really. There are a few passages that those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible always point to. Interesting. As you say, they don’t exactly strike me as rock-solid claims of inerrancy for the biblical texts themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/18 "2008-11-17T14:45:44Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If Moses was raised by a Pharoh’s daughter it would have been written down by the Egyptians as they wrote most things down about the Pharohs or their household? Yes, but that got lost in the Great Egyptian Hard Drive Crash of 948 B.C. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/19 "2008-11-17T14:59:06Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > How can anyone know what Moses wrote when Historians can find no historical proof of him except in the Torah. I knew a Jewish doctor who said he thought they meant a man by the name of Meses. If Moses was raised by a Pharoh’s daughter it would have been written down by the Egyptians as they wrote most things down about the Pharohs or their household? There is ample internal evidence in the Torah that it was writen by multiple persons at different times and redacted/edited by otrher persons at later times. Therefore, any appeal to Moses as the single author can be ignored regardless of wild speculation regarding what the Egyptians may or may not have ever written. The Egyptians are known to have suppressed references in their history to defeats in battle. If some large group of slaves had wandered away from their tasks, led by some charismatic character, and particularly if an Egyptian army had disappeared into the desert chasing them, there is no reason to believe that the Egyptians would have included those events in their history. On the other hand, if the events never occurred, there would have been nothing to write. So the absence of an Egyptian record means exactly nothing, either way. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953/20 "2008-11-17T15:46:28Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Yes, but that got lost in the Great Egyptian Hard Drive Crash of 948 B.C. AKA: The **“SHIT!”** heard 'round the world. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-questions-its-own-veracity/472953.md?page=2)