You could certainly take it to mean those things - but that would be ignoring that he carves a literal idol and literally falls to his knees to worship it. As well, your point is that storing and placing one’s trust in that store is the idolatry that is being noted - except that there is explicitly no storage so far as I can tell in the passages you cite. All that there is, is used.
Edit: I see your edit now. No, it’s a stretch to include “stores” in the idea that “well, he made a carved idol from them”. There is no reason to think that is what is meant.
He has stored 1/2. The 2nd half he does not carve and that is his idol (just a block of wood, not a carved image). The fruit of his hands from his ability he worships.
Astonishing. These people claim that the Bible is the word of God, divinely inspired. In other words, he wrote the book. Yet most of them are totally ignorant of what’s in it.
Mark 14:7 “For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.”
Matthew 26:11 “For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.”
So Jesus never thought we’d all be millionaires, and, as they consider Jesus to be also God, it is demonstrably false that God either wants or expects us all to be millionaires.
[QUOTE= Isaiah 44 - NIV]
The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in human form,
human form in all its glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine.
14
He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
15
It is used as fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.
16
Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
“Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”
17
From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
[/QUOTE]
Fairly clear, no? He carves his idol, and the text goes back to explain how this came about. And even if we were to go solely from the section you cite, “From the rest he makes a god” - not of, but from. There is a transformative property at work there which results in a loss of some of the substance, which isn’t conducive to understanding as simply worship of the store.
I note also that the King James version makes the graven idol point utterly explicit in the section you’ve quoted there, too.
Not sold on the graven image thing as the law is spiritual (Ro 7:14), not physical. This is why people (David, Jesus, Apostles, etc.) can violate the law and be found guiltless/sinless by God - they violated the physical law not the spiritual law. The graven image would have to be spiritual also (to be sinful), it would not need to be a physical carving. It would be what is worshiped in place of God, where one places their trust. The act of creating the graven image is in the heart to be sinful.
But in vs 14 we see that it is God that provided the wood, and this carpenter worships not the provider but his efforts in the wood he obtained and what he can do with it. This is not trusting in God, which i beleive is the sin.
[QUOTE Is 44:16b]
“Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”
[/QUOTE]
Shows that this person is looking at the physical - even scientific, This person is not spiritual and ignoring that the source is from God because he makes his own god. He makes his god from what he observes physically, not spiritually, but place his trust in it’s power, something that he places a spiritual significance on which is not spiritual.
I have to confess I’ve looked at a couple of translations of Romans 7 and I have zero idea what any of it is supposed to mean. I went to try and find some commentaries and… they didn’t really help that much. Oh well.
That said, if I understand your point, it is that something need not be a literal graven idol in order for it to be a sin to treat it in a manner too akin to worship. I don’t know if that’s Biblically supported per your cite of Romans - but, luckily, we don’t need to know, because what we’re talking about here is a literal graven image that has been carved. Even if the interpretation of storage were potentially reasonable, it’s still not the most likely explanation, and we have no reason to consider it apart from the mere idea that it is possible. That’s not a grounds to declare what is so.
No, he doesn’t; if he did, he would worship the fire that had warmed him and cooked his food, which he does not. Or worship the effort he used to cut down the wood, which he does not. He worships what he creates from what is left; the literal graven idol which he creates. You’re going a long way to read past a plain and simple interpretation for reasons I’m afraid I don’t understand.
Shows that this person is looking at the physical - even scientific, This person is not spiritual and ignoring that the source is from God because he makes his own god. He makes his god from what he observes physically, not spiritually, but place his trust in it’s power, something that he places a spiritual significance on which is not spiritual.
[/QUOTE]
That’s an interesting interpretation.
If I could find an example of Jesus, say, enjoying the products of the physical, would that prove that he was not spiritual? I suspect that I could find such a passage.
Try this: People like what they are comfortable with hard rules, commandments (things of this world that they can decide and even condemn by physical standards), but that is not what Jesus taught, we are children incapable of following hard rules and laws, we need to be able to make mistakes and learn, to be forgiven for mistakes. This uncertainty makes many uncomfortable. The physical Law (any law that is written down including the 10 commandments) is a quasi interpretation of loving each other and God, but very imperfect that it can get in the way of actually loving each other. The reason for the physical law is people could not understand the spiritual and needed some guidelines but it does get in the way of love for God and others at times.
Well we do have Luke 12:13-21 which goes into this preper mentality, a person depending on stores, and Luke 12:22-34 which goes to trust God for your needs, also the lesson to the Israelite in the desert.
And I also content that the physical idol is only as such as it is empowered spiritually as God judges the heart.
This is the first one that came to mind;
[QUOTE= Matthew 26]
6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”
10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a] but you will not always have me. 12 When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13 Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
[/QUOTE]
Yes, and I was also thinking of the time that Jesus was accused of being drunk.
But your example is of giving of the heart, this woman wanted to make a heart felt offering - I would consider that spiritual with a physical counterpart. And even though Jesus was accused of being drunk it was never stated as He was drunk. (not to mention the prostitutes)
Isaiah is a prophetic book, and prophecy is steeped in imagery. It’s rarely completely literal. Even biblical literalists teach that idolatry still exists in the modern world, and refers to making other things more important than God.
Now how he connects this to storing up your treasures on earth instead of in heaven, I do not know. You can make the argument that doing so is a form of idolatry, but this scripture doesn’t mention that at all, and thus is a poor choice.
I see the point. It seems to miss out on the whole benefit of having an omnipotent and omniscient being behind it, but that aside and between humans, it’s reasonable.
I disagree. In your first cite, the problem doesn’t seem to be the storage, but the fact that is isn’t passed on to someone useful when the man dies, and that God isn’t treated well, not that others are worshipped. Given that God literally says this is the problem, that seems like rather a clear answer. And while your second cite does indeed say that one should trust to God to get what they need, it doesn’t say that possessions are inherently a problem. Quite the opposite; Jesus then goes on to speak about the servants and masters, and has no issue with the fact that the master would be serving his servants in his fine house and with his food and drink.
Another way to put this might be; if a Christian artist, for example, draws a picture of Zeus, this isn’t necessarily a problem even though it’s an image of a false god. It’s only if it’s worshipped that it becomes a problem. That I agree with. In the example you cited, though, the carpenter both creates and worships a carved image. Assuming an alternative for the focus of his worship is based on nothing more than possibility and ignores a clear reading of the text.
I got that. God has no reason to not give absolute guidance, though.
But that is not brought up a problem in any of the situations you’ve cited so far. God himself is said to speak in one of them (not first-hand, but if we’re not going to take Jesus’ word for how he’d act…), and that’s not the problem he identifies.
The carving of the idol is specific to it being an idol; it’s a figurine placed in a shrine. We then go back (note the change in tense) to discover how this came about. And your problem still exists, because if the “making a god” is only the extra wood, then there isn’t any problem with the carpenter making no thanks to God for his efforts, for the wood he uses, fire he builds, etc.