# the bible = the tree of the knowledge of good and evil () Jesus = the tree of life **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210 "2004-03-24T22:28:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/21 "2004-03-25T02:59:33Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > From John, chapter 1 > In the beginning was the word and the word was God. > > So the Bible IS God’s word, it respresents everything He wanted to say. > It CANNOT be evil. Yeah, but look at what’s telling you that…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/22 "2004-03-25T03:39:27Z")
Jesus existed before the world began. The bible was dictated to the authors by God. Captain: funny… ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/23 "2004-03-25T04:03:36Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Jesus existed before the world began. > The bible was dictated to the authors by God. Er, no it wasn’t. [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/24 "2004-03-25T04:46:04Z")
Yes, it was. i will take God’s word over Cecils. Please! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/25 "2004-03-25T05:03:53Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Yes, it was. > i will take God’s word over Cecils. > Please! :rolleyes: Blasphemy!! Burn her! 😉 You know I’m kiddin’, **Vanilla**. ---
**Author:** ![Quint\_Essence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/54ee81/32.png) [@Quint\_Essence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint_Essence)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/26 "2004-03-25T05:44:09Z")
> [@](#): > > The bible was dictated to the authors by God. Odd that he dictated it in so many different styles, and conflicting statements. Odd too that he apparently needed to write 4 slightly differing gospels. I am sure though that these issues are mere curiosities… ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/27 "2004-03-25T06:04:48Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > i will take God’s word over Cecils. Okay then, where does God say that He dictated the bible? Does the bible actually _say_ something akin to “All that is written in this book was directly dictated by the Lord God Almighty”? And even if that _were_ the case (and I’m relatively sure that it isn’t), you’d still end up with a nice bit of circular reasoning: “I know that the bible was directly dictated by God because God says so in the bible that He dictated”. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/28 "2004-03-25T06:35:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay then, where does God say that He dictated the bible? 2Timothy 3:16… “All scripture is inspired by God…” or more literally, _“God-breathed”_ and 2Peter 1:20-21… “no prophesy of scripture is of any private origin, for prophesy never came by the will of man, but Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/29 "2004-03-25T06:39:32Z")
> [@j\_sum1](#): > > 2Timothy 3:16… “All scripture is inspired by God…” or more literally, _“God-breathed”_ > and > 2Peter 1:20-21… “no prophesy of scripture is of any private origin, for prophesy never came by the will of man, but Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” The problem I’ve always had with using this quote (besides the circular nature of the logic) is that _none_ of the pastoral letters were considered Scripture at the time. Hell, the Gospels weren’t even written yet! The “scriptures” Paul and Peter talk about were the Jewish scriptures and possibly a lost life-of-Jesus text. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/30 "2004-03-25T09:17:29Z")
Correct **jayjay** , the logic is circular. Which is why I would never offer these as “proof texts”. But since the question was, “Where does it say…?” I thought the references were appropriate. Incorrect **jayjay** on point two. It is clear that the Pauline epistles at least were considered scripture very early on. Consider 2Peter 3:15-16 “…the long-suffering of the LORD is salvation – as also our brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the scriptures.” There are those who conject that 2Peter was written a lot later. The theory is that it wasn’t Peter, but another person calling himself by the same name. Again, this is circular reasoning. Pitting circular logic against circular logic is a sure way to go loopy. If one accepts that the Holy Spirit is the author of Scripture, then the definition of scripture becomes the collection of writings which the Holy Spirit testifies that he authored. In other words, it is independent of the time and circumstances related to the collation of the canon. Therefore it is possible for early writers to recognise and make reference to that which was authentically scriptural. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/31 "2004-03-25T11:34:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Correct jayjay, the logic is circular. All logic is circular. In fact, all epistemlogy, including empiricism, is circular. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/32 "2004-03-25T12:11:38Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > All logic is circular. In fact, all epistemlogy, including empiricism, is circular. You lost me there somewhere **Lib** , or maybe my lack of logic papers at Uni is showing. Care to elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/33 "2004-03-25T12:43:40Z")
Logic is valid because of its own rules that define its validity. That’s circular. Empiricism relies on the senses to observe the universe, a part of which are the senses. That’s circular. Induction relies upon observation to confirm hypotheses that are derived from observation. That’s circular. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/34 "2004-03-25T12:56:58Z")
Gotcha. Are we not now right on the frontiers of Godel? I wonder if this thread is circular enough to get back to its original topic? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/35 "2004-03-25T12:59:22Z")
I think Godel is somewhat relevant. An axiomatic system cannot be both complete and consistent. But I think that the imporant lesson to learn is that there is no superior epistemology. Divine revelation is just as valid as empirical observation. And vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/36 "2004-03-25T13:05:23Z")
Oh no. It’s the return of the double-spaced screed. Please. Make it Stop. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/37 "2004-03-25T15:09:21Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Divine revelation is just as valid as empirical observation. Maybe empirical observation that is irrelevant and can’t be recreated. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/38 "2004-03-25T15:11:15Z")
I love ya, Lib. But I can never understand what youre saying! maybe its me… ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/39 "2004-03-25T15:26:51Z")
> [@j\_sum1](#): > > Consider 2Peter 3:15-16 “…the long-suffering of the LORD is salvation – as also our brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the scriptures.” > > There are those who conject that 2Peter was written a lot later. The theory is that it wasn’t Peter, but another person calling himself by the same name. It certainly is not circular logic that causes most serious scholars to question the authorship of 2 Peter. There are several reasons for the doubt, not the least of which is that the _real_ Peter died around 60CE. Paul didn’t even start writing his letters until the 40s. It’s strains credulity to believe, first, that Paul’s letters would have been collected and seen as Scripture by that point. Second, it’s further hard to accept that Paul was accepted as an equal by the original disciples. The style of 2 Peter is quite different from that of 1 Peter, suggesting a different author also. But questions about the authorship aside, it’s quite a leap of logic to suggest that the reference in 2 Peter elevates Paul’s letters to Scripture. The plain meaning of 2 Peter 3:15-16 is that it is an endorsement of Paul’s letters as **instructive commentary and valid interpretation** of the Scriptures, not as Scripture itself. ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210/40 "2004-03-25T16:10:19Z")
May i be the first to congratulate Michael111 on starting this thread ( even if there was no real question ). I have now laughed out loud 3 times in the middle of our office and coworkers are looking at me. A refreshing thread - of which Joseph Heller would have been proud ! Sheesh - the second time i referenced Catch 22 on SDMB in 1 day ? sin [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bible-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-jesus-the-tree-of-life/236210.md?page=3)