# The Big Game (Mexico vs USA in Azteca) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791 "2005-03-22T23:08:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/61 "2005-03-24T19:28:10Z")
> [@Airblairxxx](#): > > You had me at “agree to disagree” until you lapsed into Eurosnobbery with that last sentence. I’m not talking about hooliganism, I freely admit that the Euros have the monopoly on that. I’m talking about trying to win a game played (a) at 7200 feet altitude, (b) in a World Cup qualifier against someone in the same confederation, (c) against a team and country that hates you on every level. > > About the only thing I agree with you on is including Best on the list of, well, the world’s best. Glad to see that we agree on George Best. Here’s my problem with your position: (a) the game may be at a high altitude but most of the Mexican players either play closer to sea level or play in Europe themselves. (b) The game really isn’t that important though as the US is virtually guaranteed to qualify. In the European groups there is geniune competition for places. (c) National hatreds about in Europe so that’s nothing new. Moreover, oftentimes it is more intimidating to play in a small stadium with 30,000 screaming fans who are right on top of you than in a cavernous stadium with 70,000 fans kept at a distance via a race track, moat etc. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/62 "2005-03-25T10:09:30Z")
George Best wasn’t the best player at Man Utd - Charlton and Crerand were better. He wasn’t the best at Fulham - Mooore was better. He wasn’t even the best in the Northern Ireland team - Jennings was better. He was the David Beckham of his time - a good player with great PR, but not a great player. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/63 "2005-03-25T13:40:28Z")
Just found this nice quote re the air quality at Azteca: > [@](#): > > “I once saw Cobi cough up something that looked like a brownie. It’s like never smoking your whole life, then being told to smoke a pack of cigarettes and try to function normally. You get sick.” - Former national team forward Eric Wynalda, describing the air quality in Mexico City [Sports Illustrated, March 28] ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/64 "2005-03-25T13:49:42Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Also; yanks, is this stadium as funny to you lot as it is to (puerile) me? Yes. Although, I’m curious as to how you stumbled across it. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/65 "2005-03-25T17:14:03Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > George Best wasn’t the best player at Man Utd - Charlton and Crerand were better. He wasn’t the best at Fulham - Mooore was better. He wasn’t even the best in the Northern Ireland team - Jennings was better. > > He was the David Beckham of his time - a good player with great PR, but not a great player. As much as I like Paddy Creand I have to disagree with you. To compare Best to Beckham is just wrong. Best could tackle (he was hard as #@(@) head the ball and, wait for it, dribble and beat a man. Beckham can do none of the above. Bobby Charlton doesn’t think he is better than George Best nor would Johnny Giles who was a class player who played against Best. Best was, arguably, the greatest player to play the game so to compare him to Beckham is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/66 "2005-03-25T18:51:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Thursday, 12:30 a.m.-The first thing you noticed, aside from the choking stench given off by a nearby oil refinery, was the relatively calm atmosphere in the city. > … > > Thursday, 9 a.m. - The relative calm of the city may be why the Mexican media went on the offensive Thursday morning, splashing ‘Revenge’ on more than a few front pages. A scan of the local newspapers uncovered more than a dozen stories describing how Mexican players who played in the 2-0 loss in Korea in 2002 were looking forward to gaining revenge. Not surprisingly, the consensus among the Mexican players is that A) it hurt to lose to the Americans and B) they won’t let it happen again. Would a player actually come out and say, “I have to admit it, they own us.” Somehow I doubt it. > … > > Thursday, noon - > … > > After the church, I make my way to scope out potential venues where Mexican fans will gather to watch the game. When the U.S. beat Mexico in the World Cup, thousands of Mexican fans watched the horror in the streets on large screen televisions. According to a Mexican federation official, there are no plans to have big screens in the street again, perhaps to avoid rioting if the U.S. team pulls off its first win at Azteca on Sunday. This time around, most fans will gather at bars and restaurants to cheer their squad on. The feeling among fans is that Mexico should have little trouble. Apparently they haven’t been keeping track of Mexico’s recent record against the Americans. I wasn’t about to point it out to them. - From Ives Galarcep’s [journal at ESPN Soccernet.com](http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=328717&cc=5901) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/67 "2005-03-25T18:57:55Z")
Comparing various rivalries is a bit pointless. This one is probably a lot dfiferent than others in that the vitriol is almost all consuming on one side and almost non-existant on the other. I mean this in the context of a national obsession. American soccer fans are definatey feeling the rivalry, as are the players. But most of the US will hardly know there is a game happening, especially since the basketball tornament is on. However, in Mexico the emotion for this game easily rivals anybody anywhere. What is funny is that it especially gets them that we have been beating them and we don’t care. That aong with the usual disdain for the US in Mexico for it’s “imperialism” etc. The one thing they had over us was, “You are richer more powerful, but we kick your asses in soccer.” And they don’t even have that anymore. It hurts and they don’t like it at all. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/68 "2005-03-25T18:59:42Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > As much as I like Paddy Creand I have to disagree with you. To compare Best to Beckham is just wrong. Best could tackle (he was hard as #@(@) head the ball and, wait for it, dribble and beat a man. Beckham can do none of the above. Bobby Charlton doesn’t think he is better than George Best nor would Johnny Giles who was a class player who played against Best. Best was, arguably, the greatest player to play the game so to compare him to Beckham is just wrong. Off the top of my head here are ten british players that are better than Best (and played either with or after him) Bobby Moore Kenny Dalgleish Pat Jennings Gordon Banks Peter Shilton Jimmy Greaves Jim Baxter Danny Blanchflower Dennis Law Paul Gasgoigne (and if we’re allowed to choose paddies (bear in mind he was eligible to play for ireland too) Liam Brady and Roy Keane are much better players) I did try to think of a welsh one, but I couldn’t (having said that I would say that on his day Giggs is at least as good as Best - really; don’t believe the hype. There is a reason that Man Utd let him go when he was only 27 - and it isn’t all down to booze. He was replaceable.) I’m not saying he wasn’t very good but the myth is at odds with the reality. Also we never saw him in serious international competition (which is also true of Blanchflower) - so I suspect that a lot of the regard he is held in wouldn’t have continued if he were English. If you doubt this: - imagine that John Barnes had never pulled on an england top. Think what his reputation would be like now compared with where it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/69 "2005-03-25T19:15:43Z")
I have a book called _Soccer Yearbook 2003-4: The COmplete Guide to the World Game_. Depsite the word ‘Soccer’ it is a English publication that is pretty comprehensive. Anyway they have their own list of 20 greatest players of all time: Baresi, Franco van Basten, Marco Beckenbauer, Franz Best, George Cruyff, Johan Dalglish, Kenny Di Stefano, Alfredo Eusebio Garrincha Maradona, Diego Matthews, Stanley (?) Meazza, Giuseppe Moore, Bobby Muller, Gerd Pele Platini, Michel Puskas, Ferenc Schmeichel, Peter Yashin, Lev Zidane, Zinedine ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/70 "2005-03-25T19:32:07Z")
“Dos a Cero”. Live it. Love it. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/71 "2005-03-25T19:36:27Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > I have a book called _Soccer Yearbook 2003-4: The COmplete Guide to the World Game_. Depsite the word ‘Soccer’ it is a English publication that is pretty comprehensive. > > Anyway they have their own list of 20 greatest players of all time: > > Baresi, Franco > van Basten, Marco > Beckenbauer, Franz > Best, George > Cruyff, Johan > Dalglish, Kenny > Di Stefano, Alfredo > Eusebio > Garrincha > Maradona, Diego > Matthews, Stanley (?) > Meazza, Giuseppe > Moore, Bobby > Muller, Gerd > Pele > Platini, Michel > Puskas, Ferenc > Schmeichel, Peter > Yashin, Lev > Zidane, Zinedine Hard to argue with that - apart from the fact that it doesn’t go back that far. Matthews, Puskas, Garrincha and DiStafano are the only pre-TV players. There should also be a place for John Charles, Tom Finney, Nat Lofthouse etc (BTW my Dad reckoned the best player ever ever ever ever (etc) was John White - who’s now completely unknown as there is about 10 minutes of footage of him surviving). Oh and George Best can get out of any top twenty list as well! And finally - Schmeichel better than Banks Shilton or Jennings? - they’re having a laugh.! ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/72 "2005-03-25T20:02:20Z")
I’d still rather breath in the air in Mexico city then get kicked in the groin by a Mexican. SI had an article about this game this week. They said that the US asked Mexico to not schedule the game at Azteca and we’d play them in LA. No way, Jose, said the Mexicans. So, we made them play us in Columbus, OH. Anyway, I’m not a big soccer fan, but based on recent results, it sounds like we have a stronger squad. I’m going to say we overcome the atmosphere, the chocolate brownies, and the kung-fu groin kicks, and pull out the victory. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/73 "2005-03-25T20:28:50Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Off the top of my head here are ten british players that are better than Best (and played either with or after him) > > Bobby Moore > Kenny Dalgleish > Pat Jennings > Gordon Banks > Peter Shilton > Jimmy Greaves > Jim Baxter > Danny Blanchflower > Dennis Law > Paul Gasgoigne > > (and if we’re allowed to choose paddies (bear in mind he was eligible to play for ireland too) Liam Brady and Roy Keane are much better players) > > I did try to think of a welsh one, but I couldn’t (having said that I would say that on his day Giggs is at least as good as Best - really; don’t believe the hype. There is a reason that Man Utd let him go when he was only 27 - and it isn’t all down to booze. He was replaceable.) > > I’m not saying he wasn’t very good but the myth is at odds with the reality. > > Also we never saw him in serious international competition (which is also true of Blanchflower) - so I suspect that a lot of the regard he is held in wouldn’t have continued if he were English. If you doubt this: - imagine that John Barnes had never pulled on an england top. Think what his reputation would be like now compared with where it actually is. Firstly, please do not refer to Irish people by the perjorative term “paddy”, “mick” or other wise. I do not want to appear PC but it’s insulting and there’s no need for it on these boards. Secondly, I think you’re wrong about Best and a lot of others do as well. Giles played against Best and he considers him the greatest player he every played against. Matt Busby said the exact same thing. Each to his own but I would have Best on any World XI. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/74 "2005-03-25T22:27:27Z")
I’m going to step in as Moderator here, supporting **Lochdale** ’s comment. Ethnic nicknames are generally pejorative, and we like to think that we’ve moved beyond racist name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![Dubious\_Sacrifice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f08c70/32.png) [@Dubious\_Sacrifice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dubious_Sacrifice)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/75 "2005-03-26T04:11:13Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Off the top of my head here are ten british players that are better than Best (and played either with or after him) > > Bobby Moore > Kenny Dalgleish > Pat Jennings > Gordon Banks > Peter Shilton > Jimmy Greaves > Jim Baxter > Danny Blanchflower > Dennis Law > Paul Gasgoigne Any particular reason why **Gary Linaker** is not on your list? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/76 "2005-03-26T11:18:45Z")
> [@Dubious Sacrifice](#): > > Any particular reason why **Gary Linaker** is not on your list? There’s only ten spaces and he’s not that good. At spurs alone we’ve had Greaves who’s better. (and maybe even little defoe if he keeps up his improvement) BTW “Paddy” isn’t rude in England - two cultures divided by a common language again. Apologies for any offensive - it was inadvertent. ---
**Author:** ![riverbrent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@riverbrent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/riverbrent)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/77 "2005-03-26T13:52:55Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > How exactly is this a big game? No matter who loses, they will still qualify for the World Cup due to the extraordinary easy group that both Mexico and the US are in. It will affect seedings but that’s about it. Bah, watch Ireland v. Israel on Saturday which will be a real match. What? Israel? Is this a joke? Ok, you explain how this qualifies as a “real match”. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/78 "2005-03-26T18:00:33Z")
In the only “Big game” today we won 4-0. Could have had a dozen. I will actually be looking out for the USA v Mexico result tomorrow - and that’s certainly a first for me! ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/79 "2005-03-27T00:28:03Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > There’s only ten spaces and he’s not that good. At spurs alone we’ve had Greaves who’s better. (and maybe even little defoe if he keeps up his improvement) > > BTW “Paddy” isn’t rude in England - two cultures divided by a common language again. Apologies for any offensive - it was inadvertent. Actually “Paddy” is considered to be quite rude to Irish people living in England. I know, I was one of them (though I now reside in Chicago). It was always a pejorative when used by an English person when referring to an Irish person. I am astonished that you do not know that. Let’s not make an issue of it just try not to use it. Deal? The Ireland - Israel game was utter muck. It would almost turn you off football. The reason, however, the game is relevant because it actaully affects qualification. A team can’t just lose and know they are going through a la Mexico and the US. Anyways, poor game and Israel deserved the draw. Puts us in serious jeopardy of missing out on Germany :smack: ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791/80 "2005-03-27T17:51:27Z")
Game just started and the US team is booed every time they even touch the ball… this is going to be interesting. As for best English footballers, I think Kevin Keegan has to be included (two time European Footballer of the Year). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-game-mexico-vs-usa-in-azteca/295791.md?page=5)