# The "Big Impact" Plan for Iraqi WMDs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325 "2003-08-01T11:35:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/281 "2003-10-07T00:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\* > And, in my opinion, any President who has lied about evidence and thereby conned the legislature and public into an unjustified war which results in pissing off most of the rest of the world has cause great damage to the US and has earned a certain amount of disrespect and even, yes, hatred. \*\* Can you prove for a fact that he lied? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/282 "2003-10-07T00:27:40Z")
Hey, nobody can prove for a fact that _you’ve_ lied. What’s that tell ya? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/283 "2003-10-07T00:44:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\*Hey, nobody can prove for a fact that _you’ve_ lied. > > What’s that tell ya? \*\* That accusations are cheap and easy. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/284 "2003-10-07T01:08:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Really? To me he is the one who does not appear totally frothing at the mouth insane with hate, and he actually seems to be campaigning on issues. > > But I guess in this election being a good Democrat is about how much you can hate the President. \*\* All rhetoric and vitriol aside, I have to ask - do you really believe this? Can you see how limited the thought behind this is? Can you see at all where your bias may be influencing you? Look - Bush said things. They were wrong. Lieberman says the same things. They are equally wrong. Perhaps you are right, and he is the best candidate for you. If you want to claim that “Loserman” never escaped your lips, nobody will be the wiser. Go ahead and vote for him. Were I a Bush apologist, I would probably be looking for some alternate choices too. But really, this is a pretty transparent diversionary tactic, even for you. Or do you propose that Lieberman saying so actually brings credence to Bush’s claims? Thanksgiving’s coming, the goose is getting fat. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/285 "2003-10-07T01:12:01Z")
Damn, **Scylla**. Your adamant refusal to recognize the blazingly obvious would be commendable, even noble, if it weren’t squandered on such unworthy men. They took you loyalty and credulity and wiped thier butts with it. Now they hand it back to you and tell you the odor is attar of roses. Wise up, _amigo_. Its never too late. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/286 "2003-10-07T01:21:27Z")
Hentor: > [@](#): > > All rhetoric and vitriol aside, I have to ask - do you really believe this? Yes, I’m afraid I really do. I think that what Lieberman said was understated and responsible, defensible and accurate. I’ll return the favor and show you no vitriol in return, but you have to see how things look from my side. There’s an unending stream of accusations being levelled by the liberal side and there has been for a long time. It looks to me like the Democrats’ major stance is how much they hate Bush/Republicans. I mean that as a constructive criticism, not a put down. I just don’t see that as an appealing stance. It’s easy to attack and debase opponents. Having constructive ideas is hard. Leiberman seems to me the Democrat who has both constructive ideas and has taken the admirable stance of campaigning on his strengths and not by attacking his ultimate opponent, Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/287 "2003-10-07T01:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Damn, **Scylla**. Your adamant refusal to recognize the blazingly obvious would be commendable, even noble, if it weren’t squandered on such unworthy men. > > \*\* I’m not the guy saying how horrible Fox news is while claiming he never watches it, so perhaps these things aren’t as obvious to me, poisoned as I am by exposure to Fox. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/288 "2003-10-07T01:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Can you prove for a fact that he lied? \*\* He said in his State of The Union that British intelligence reported the attempted purchase of nuclear material in Africa. He either knew, or should have known as a responsible Chief Executive, that his own intelligence apparatus had serious doubts about this. This and other hightly exaggerated claims convinced the Congress to give him authority to go to war with Iraq only on his own say-so. The claim that he didn’t lie because British intelligence has in fact made that claim is lying by splitting hairs for the purpose of evasion. The “fact” was obviously presented as true in order to influence Congress and the public. If that isn’t lying it will have to do until something better comes along. In view of GW’s record that shouldn’t take long. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/289 "2003-10-07T02:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **But I guess in this election being a good Democrat is about how much you can hate the President. > … > Can you prove for a fact that he lied?** **Scylla** , I consider myself to be the best kind of democrat, the kind that doesn’t hate **anybody.** As my father told me from as young an age as I can remember, hate is **always** too strong a word. I don’t find it hard to believe that Bush is a decent, nice, and basically honest guy. In fact, I find it pretty easy to believe. I think he loves his wife, doesn’t hate any particular race, and genuinely believes that the children are our future. What’s more, I think he really _believed_ that we needed to invade Iraq. But here’s the catcher, I don’t think he believed we needed to do it for the reasons he presented. I’m not sure why he wanted to do it, but I’m pretty sure he thought it was a good reason. There were a lot of pieces of blatantly false evidence coming out of the administration, all of which were presented with the utmost confidence and conviction. Too many to be an accident, in my book. I tend to think he honestly felt we **had** to invade. I think he thought that the reason was good enough to lie to the American people, for their own good, and quite possibly – he believed – for the good of the world. I believe, that **he** believed, that his reason was solid, righteous, and worth whatever lives it might cost. The only problem is, it wasn’t the reason he gave us, sold us, and all but rammed down our throat. Only history will tell whether or not he was right, and even then it will probably be a subject of vigorous debate. But in this time, in this place, he is wrong. For one reason and one reason only. A democracy cannot run on the good intentions of one man. It can only run on that purest of fuels: good, honest information. The leader must use honesty in leadership, and the people must use honest information in making an informed decision: To follow? Or not? To review: I think very few people actually **hate** Bush, probably no more than hate Clinton. But either way it’s irrelevant. It’s not Bush the man I’m concerned with, it’s Bush the name. It’s Bush the leader. And Bush the leader is quite possibly the worst leader this country has ever had. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/290 "2003-10-07T02:13:17Z")
When the dreaded Trailers of Doom were discovered, it was touted and ballyhooed as the proof positive. Of course, it was no such thing. (There are those who still cling abjectly to the fantasy that these were state of the art bio-warfare laboratories, cunningly disguised as piles of scrap metal on wheels. But I digress…) Contrary expert opinion was immediate, knowledgeable persons pointed out gaping holes in that story. At the very least, the issue was unsettled. Yet, when GeeDubya was interviewed by Polish television in Warsaw, he stated unequivocally, without the slightest caveat, that those trailers were bio-warfare labs. Period. No hint of a contrary opinion. Not the merest suggestion. Now, as Ms. Rice has it, “the President is not a fact-checker”. But I, for one, demand a higher level of truth from a man who dares to lead us to war. As I’ve said, I am reluctant to be led to war. But I’ll be God-damned if I’ll be bullshitted into one. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/291 "2003-10-07T02:16:43Z")
From what I’ve read so far of Kay’s remarks about his report, he uses quite a few qualifiers for most all of the juicy bits the bits. It reminds me of ad copy in some places. Several times he says that they’re “working on” whether or not such and such _could_ be used for a banned weapons program. It gives the whole things a feel of being shysterish. It may or may not be. I don’t have anything to compare t with but Kay’s remarks about his report. W/o source material, I can’t say for certain how far things have been, um…uh…elaborated on. But the use of language gives me great pause. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/292 "2003-10-07T02:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*I’m not the guy saying how horrible Fox news is while claiming he never watches it, so perhaps these things aren’t as obvious to me, poisoned as I am by exposure to Fox. \*\* I **do** watch Fox News, and it isn’t horrible, not like deep fat frying live kitties is horrible. But it **is** totally ludicrous, and does more to misinform than to inform. I’d rather people were just ignorant rather than misinformed. As we’ve seen in this last year, being misinformed can get you into a whole lot of trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/293 "2003-10-07T02:23:14Z")
OK, if it makes you feel better substitute “negligent misrepresentation” for “lie.” As a practical matter it amounts to the same thing. Our nation has pledged the lives of its young people and the treasure of the nation to an effort that was not necessary in order to combat a threat that was not there in order to gain and objective that has turned into an imaginary prize. It has done all that because a small group of men were determined to have that prize at any cost in national credibility and prestige. If the President and all his men did not know that there was every chance that the threat they claimed was poised by Iraq did not really exist then they chose to ignore all the contrary information that was available to them. We can know that contrary information was available to the President because it was available on these boards. If that is true then the President has not only engaged in a negligent misrepresentation he has laid down the credibility and prestige of the nation on a reckless gamble. That is worse than a deliberate lie. That is just stupid. It is right up there with frying sticks of dynamite and then claiming you had no basis on which to expect it might explode. It is like putting on a magic act with a tiger and expressing surprise when the tiger decides to eat your head. It is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/294 "2003-10-07T02:28:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weird With Words \* > \*\ ***Scylla** , I consider myself to be the best kind of democrat… **Weird With Words** , welcome to the SDMB!! From that one post alone I can tell that this Board will greatly benefit from having you around! ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/295 "2003-10-07T02:28:34Z")
Look, **Scylla** and the rest of the pro-war crowd: this isn’t an academic discussion. Without getting into all the wacked out details, since no one in the pro-war crowd, and I mean NO ONE, is interested in actually dealing with the details, the meat of this matter is simple, and cuts through all the stupid BS: did or did not Bush make us any safer, right here, at home? The answer, quite obviously, is no. It’s an open question whether he made us less safe. Which just highlights how utterly irresponsible his policies in the Middle East have been. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/296 "2003-10-07T02:37:41Z")
Thanks **jshore**! I’ll try to make ya proud. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/297 "2003-10-07T03:44:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Scylla_ > > **Can you prove for a fact that he lied?** You tell me what you call the following: David Kay, October 2003: > [@](#): > > **"Our understanding of the status of Iraq’s WMD program was always bounded by large uncertainties and had to be heavily caveated."** George W. Bush, March 2003: > [@](#): > > **"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal" (WMD’s)** Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/298 "2003-10-07T03:56:20Z")
So which is it, Scylla? Is George II an intentional liar or terminally ignorant? And which, in your view, is a more admirable trait for a Commander in Chief? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/299 "2003-10-07T05:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*So which is it, Scylla? Is George II an intentional liar or terminally ignorant? And which, in your view, is a more admirable trait for a Commander in Chief? \*\* I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive and I vote for both. I think GW is a perpetual sophmore who made up his mind about things at age 20 and has never changed it. As another poster remarked it was said that the President, “… is not a fact checker.” Well for Chrissake, why not? To not follow up and make sure that you know what you are doing before going to war, is to be ignorant of taking precautions in such serious affairs. To make statements like those that have been cited here in answer to **Scylla’s** challenge is to lie either by commission or omission. A half-truth when it is used to fool the nation into starting a war is one of the worst of lies in my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/300 "2003-10-07T10:18:00Z")
Most recently, that poster was Yours More or Less Truly, but full credit for the hilarity belongs to Condoleeza Rice, who is hotter than Gwen Ifil, but just barely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325.md?page=16)