# The "Big Impact" Plan for Iraqi WMDs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325 "2003-08-01T11:35:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/101 "2003-08-03T20:00:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Once you acknowledge that there _was_ a risk of WMDs, you and the Democrats have lost this debate.** Because, of course, the cause against war was a lie unless we were 100% certain there were no WMDs. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/102 "2003-08-03T21:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rsa \* > But Saadi is a long retired general. So it is more accurate to say that he is a former general. Well, as recently as March 2, 2003, just 18 days before the troops crossed the border, Saadi gave a [press conference](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30984-2003Mar2) on the subject of Iraq’s banned missiles. The Washington Post described him at that time as both a general and as Saddam’s “top science adviser.” When he first surrendered, the [NY Times](http://www.iht.com/articles/93074.html) described him as a general; as a “top science adviser;” as the “architect of Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons programs;” as the “liaison with United Nations arms inspectors searching for banned weapons” and as “34th on a list of 55 Iraqi government officials wanted for prosecution as war criminals.” It **may** turn out that he really has been retired since 1994, but it doesn’t exactly look that way and I can’t blame “the authorities” if they want a little more proof than his wife’s say-so before they release him. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/103 "2003-08-03T21:53:49Z")
**zig** : So let’s see, then. We’ve had the “architect of Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons programs” in custody and under interrogation for about three months, now – and still we can’t find a single catch of chemical or biological weaponry? This doesn’t shake the faith of the flock even a tiny bit? Are you going to hang it on David Kay’s “smile,” now? The further it goes, the more pathetic it gets. Wake up. Your emperor has no clothes, and all the desperate rhetorical gesticulation in the world isn’t going to change that. Not so stupid that I’ve given up believing in the evidence of my own senses, me. Not yet at least. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/104 "2003-08-03T22:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Svinlesha \* > So let’s see, then. We’ve had the “architect of Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons programs” in custody and under interrogation for about three months, now – and still we can’t find a single catch of chemical or biological weaponry? > > This doesn’t shake the faith of the flock even a tiny bit? Are you going to hang it on David Kay’s “smile,” now? No, I’m just content to be patient. Three months is nothing. Heck, I’m still learning about Vietnam and thats 30 years now. The fact is that I don’t see any point in debating the future. We will find what we find. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/105 "2003-08-03T23:24:18Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I’m just content to be patient. Three months is nothing. Heck, I’m still learning about Vietnam and thats 30 years now. Here’s the difference, in case you’re interested. In Vietnam, it was in the interest of the Administration to keep the revelations from the last 20-30 years secret. They current Administration would _dearly love_ to fill you in on any discoveries. The would sacrifice their first-born to find the missing pieces that they need to justify their war. IMHO, they can wait til the cows come home. It ain’t forthcoming. Click you heals together as many times as you wish. Kansas is a dream. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/106 "2003-08-03T23:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > Here’s the difference, in case you’re interested. > > In Vietnam, it was in the interest of the Administration to keep the revelations from the last 20-30 years secret. Now why would the administration want to keep it a secret that, contrary to popular belief, blacks and low income people actually did not make up most of the fatalities in Vietnam? Why would they want to cover-up the fact that a blood bath actually did occur after the US left? Why would they hide the fact that the general picture of the 18 year old draftee was a myth? Why would they pretend that the Viet Cong didn’t murder 5,000 civilians in Hue? Explain please. I **am** interested. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/107 "2003-08-04T00:03:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > He’s still clinging to the Titanic wall panel in the icy waters, at three am, hoping against hope . . . > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Noting London\_Calling’s comment: > > _The voters outside the Straight Dope > Encourage Republican hope. > …They don’t focus on blame; > …Safety’s real, not some game; > To the Democrats, they will say, “Nope!”_ ‘though his dreams are barely afloat I’m far to _polite_ to gloat Or to mention my view Of his toupe askew . . or that his Titanic is no more afloat ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/108 "2003-08-04T00:17:44Z")
eh rats, pasted the draft: last line: . . . ‘as I cruise past on my ya(ch)t_e_’ hey ho . . . good night. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/109 "2003-08-04T00:25:10Z")
Look, in Vietnam at least we had the rationale of helping to defend one (then-)sovereign nation, South Vietnam, from North Vietnam’s attempts to conquer and annex it. We weren’t trying to invade, conquer, or occupy North Vietnam. However ill-advisedly, we were trying to defend South Vietnam against a combination of foreign aggession and domestic insurgency sponsored in part by foreign powers. You don’t need a whole lot of evidence to justify the right to do that sort of thing. But invading and occupying a sovereign nation is a whole different matter. One should damn well have one’s justifications lined up beforehand. If those justifications turn out to be false, then whatever the domestic political repercussions, the U.S. has basically lied to the world. And admitted that it will say anything to gain some fig leaf of approval (“coalition of the willing”, anyone?) to violate international norms whenever the hell it wants to, for whatever reason it wants to. Just WTF _was_ our reason for invading Iraq, btw? Last I’d heard, there _wasn’t_ a particular reason; the Bushies couldn’t agree on _why_ it needed to be done, just _that_ it needed to be done. And WMDs was what they could convince Congress and the public of, and what they had hopes of convincing the UN of. That’s one hell of a sorry basis for deposing a foreign head of state, no matter how despicable. Getting back to the main subject, what the Moonie Paper didn’t say was that the “Big Impact” plan isn’t a plan for _collecting information_ about WMDs; it’s a plan for _managing the PR about WMDs_. And I’ve got to quote this passage from the Washington Times ‘story’: > [@](#): > > Until recently, Col. McMaster, a West Point graduate who has a Ph.D. in American history, was a military fellow at the Hoover Institution. Among his writings was this paragraph: > “President George W. Bush’s approach to the current Iraqi problem stands in stark contrast to LBJ’s approach to Vietnam. The Bush administration made its case for military action, and, after considerable debate, the American people, through their representatives in Congress, gave approval. The administration also made its case to the United Nations, highlighting the damage that inaction would inflict on prospects for peace in the long term.” Yeah, except the Bush Administration made its case by _lying_, because the facts in hand at the time weren’t sufficient to persuade much more than a sixth-grade class at Bob Jones Elementary School. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/110 "2003-08-04T00:34:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Until recently, Col. McMaster, a West Point graduate who has a Ph.D. in American history, was a military fellow at the Hoover Institution. You could also mention that the Hovver Institution is an ultra-conservative organization. Cites available if needed. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/111 "2003-08-04T00:55:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Now why would the administration want to keep it a secret that, contrary to popular belief, blacks and low income people actually did not make up most of the fatalities in Vietnam? > > Why would they want to cover-up the fact that a blood bath actually did occur after the US left? > > Why would they hide the fact that the general picture of the 18 year old draftee was a myth? > > Why would they pretend that the Viet Cong didn’t murder 5,000 civilians in Hue? > > Explain please. I am interested. _That_ was the best, most original, quickly composed, diversionary reply I"ve ever seen. The Administration during the Vietnam War was trying to keep secret from the American people information that would reflect poorly upon their justification for the war. And it worked for a long time. I guess there is more of a parallel here than a disparity. The current administration is also trying to keep, as long as possible, the fact that they had no evidence to wage war. I hope you lead a healthy life. You’ll need it to wait for the proof. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/112 "2003-08-04T01:11:28Z")
To repeat myself, **Sam** : Osama killed more U.S. citizens in one day than Saddam did in two wars. I have no trouble at all deciding who’s the greater threat, and who we should be focussed on. And I certainly don’t need a crystal ball to tell me who that person is. All I need do is remember that awful day, and recall that nagging feeling that comes to me every morning, when I get dressed to ride the bus back into NYC for work. I know who’s threatening my life, and I know who doesn’t give a damn about it, as long as he can win the next election. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/113 "2003-08-04T03:15:49Z")
Oh, they’ll find proof all right. They will find a weapons program, because everybody has some documentation, some plans, some knowledge of this poisonous crap. We all do. The US is still trying to figure out how to safely dispose of the nasty shit we already possess. Somewhere, in at least one filing cabinet in Iraq, there are plans and discussions, etc., about nerve gas, anthrax, you name it. If that’s all it takes to be a “weapons program”, they’re home free. And you can bet your sweet butt that they will be advancing that very same proposition: look here, plans for an anthrax bomb, got official Iraqi seals and everything, yesiree, Bob, a “weapons program”. This will prove that Iraq was about as much of a threat as Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/114 "2003-08-04T09:46:23Z")
**Sam** : [Comments](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10677-2003Jul31.html) from two members of the Intelligence Committees that actually heard Kay’s briefings clearly gainsay your optimistic appraisal of their contents: > [@](#): > > \*\* After Kay’s afternoon session with the intelligence committee, its vice chairman, Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), said he remains cautious about finding “very extensive weapons – ready for attack – that we all were told existed.” He said he expects that there will be evidence of weapons programs in time, “but signs of a weapons program are very different than the stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons that were a certainty before the war.” > > “It’s looking more and more like a case of mass deception,” Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) said after hearing Kay’s morning briefing. “There was no imminent danger, and we should never have gone to war.” \*\* **zig** : I see no reason to wait. Consider the following:[ul][li]On Sept. 7, 2002, Bush said, “I would remind you that when the inspectors first went into Iraq and were denied – finally denied access, a report came out of the Atomic – the IAEA [International Atomic Energy Agency], that they were six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon. I don’t know what more evidence we need.” This statement was nothing less than a blatant lie.[/li] [li]prior to the war Powell claimed that “ **there was no doubt** ” that Iraq possessed “chemical weapons stocks.” A DIA report from the same period, in contrast, stated unequivocally that there exists ‘‘no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing or stockpiling’’ chemical weapons.[/li] [li]speaking in Cincinnati during the run-up to the war, Bush stated unequivocally, “After 11 years during which we have tried containment, sanctions, inspections, even selected military action, the end result is that Saddam Hussein **still has chemical and biological weapons** and is increasing his capabilities to make more.” Note: not _weapons programs_. Weapons. Note as well that Bush does not prevaricate; apparently, he _knows_ the weapons exist. Now, 3 months after the war, the administration still can’t find them.[/li] [li]In his presentation to the UN, Powell declared:[/li][QUOTE] - Saddam Hussein is determined to get his hands on a nuclear bomb. He is so determined that he has made repeated covert attempts to acquire high-specification aluminum tubes from 11 different countries, even after inspections resumed. These tubes are controlled by the Nuclear Suppliers Group precisely because they can be used as centrifuges for enriching uranium. By now, just about everyone has heard of these tubes, and we all know that there are differences of opinion. There is controversy about what these tubes are for. **Most U.S. experts think they are intended to serve as rotors in centrifuges used to enrich uranium.** \* [/QUOTE] He then went on to list the reasons that led him to believe that the tubes were really intended for uranium enrichment. Curiously, his assessment ignores the findings by State’s own intelligence organ, which had concluded that it was “far more likely that the tubes are intended for another purpose, most likely the production of artillery rockets." [li] the White House admitted that the SOTU contained false/misleading information on Iraq’s attempt to purchase uranium from an African country, and has been unable to provide a satisfactory explanation for how the claim came to be included in the speech. [/li] [li]on March 17, in a televised speech on the eve of the invasion, Bush stated that “'intelligence gathered by this and other governments **leaves no doubt** that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.” I repeat: a DIA report from the same period, in contrast, stated unequivocally that there exists ‘‘no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing or stockpiling’’ chemical weapons.[/li] [li]and, of course, the kicker: despite dire warnings of the immediate threat posed by Hussein’s regime, an intensive search of the country has failed to uncover a single “WMD,” leaving the administration to now attempt to cobble together a case after the fact with nothing but a couple of trailers full of documents.[/ul][/li] That’s just a small sample, by the way. I could probably fill a couple of pages with similar examples. If y’all were so fired up to go to war on the basis of such flimsy evidence against Hussein, why balk now? We have much more evidence of misdeeds on the part of the Bush administration than we ever had of Iraq’s possession of “WMDs.” I mean, even if Kay’s inspection teams luck out and stumble across something now, after the fact – so what? Isn’t it already clear that they _don’t really know yet_ if it’s there or not – despite their previous claims of certainty? Is this not _in itself_ strong evidence that Bush and his cronies lied to the American public in order to instigate a war? The time for a congressional probe on this matter is long overdue. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/115 "2003-08-04T12:55:47Z")
Also, **Sam** , why are you so insistent on declaring the war in Afghanistan a victory NOW (your capitalization), while insisting on waiting for some hoped-for “truth” to emerge re Iraq? The latter is a simple yes/no, while the former requires judgment. But you’re denigrating anyone who disagrees with you either way. The only consistency there is your total support of whatever the Bush Administration does or even says, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/116 "2003-08-04T15:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Also, **Sam** , why are you so insistent on declaring the war in Afghanistan a victory NOW (your capitalization), \*\* Victory in Afghanistan? What victory? If there was one is seems to have been ephemeral. This _Los Angeles Times_ story on [Afghan troubles](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-afghan4aug04,1,5090276.story?coll=la-home-headlines) would lead one to conclude that. This looks like GW’s mode of operation. Dive in, do a half-assed job, then move on as soon as you’ve gotten all the personal gain you can. That seems to have been his mode in business and if it worked to his advantage then why not now? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/117 "2003-08-04T16:37:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Also, **Sam** , why are you so insistent on declaring the war in Afghanistan a victory NOW (your capitalization), while insisting on waiting for some hoped-for “truth” to emerge re Iraq? The latter is a simple yes/no, while the former requires judgment. But you’re denigrating anyone who disagrees with you either way. > > The only consistency there is your total support of whatever the Bush Administration does or even says, isn’t it? \*\* First of all. **Sam** hasn’t declared a victory. But, things are certainly better for the people there. One doesn’t need perfect results to recognize substantial improvement. E.g., Racism in America isn’t eliminated, but it’s a lot less than it was 100 years ago. Gays don’t have full equality, but their situation is a lot better than it was 100 years ago. The social safety net – welfare, Social Security, etc. – hasn’t wiped out poverty, but the poor are a lot better off than they were 100 years ago. SIMILARLY – Conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan aren’t perfect, but the residents are a lot better off than they were when their wretched prior governments were in power. Also better off are people from other countries who might have been attacked by these wretched governments. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/118 "2003-08-04T17:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*First of all. **Sam** hasn’t declared a victory. Forget [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=200363&perpage=50&highlight=Afghanistan%20NOW&pagenumber=2) already, did you? It was just a few days ago. You were there, too. Wishing doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/119 "2003-08-04T19:09:38Z")
**ElvisL1ves:** This is what I said: > [@](#): > > So prognostication aside, wouldn’t you say that TODAY, Afghanistan is a better place to live than it was under the Taliban? Wouldn’t you say that TODAY, the world is better off than it would have been had the U.S. stayed home and let Osama run his terrorist nut-hatchery? How do you read into that some statement that from now until the end of eternity Afghanistan will be a great place to live? As for ‘declaring victory’, that’s an interesting question. If the goal of the war was to depose the Taliban and break down the terrorist training camps, then it was an unqualified victory. If the goal was to ‘get Osama Bin Laden’, then it wasn’t. Note, however, that that was never the stated victory condition. The capture or killing of a single individual has never been the stated victory condition of the U.S. government. In a world of 6 billion people, it can be awfully difficult to find individuals, even if you’re a superpower. Now, how does this relate in any way to the arguments I’ve been making with respect to Iraq? Let me repeat my position: The lack of WMD so far is puzzling. However, absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absense, especially when we know this regime was actively hiding those programs. We’ve been finding hidden and buried stuff all over the place. It does not stretch the imagination to suggest that we may find WMD that way. And now David Kay says he has reams and reams of documentary evidence that they are still going through, including information about efforts to hide weapons and move them to Syria. My position is, “Well, maybe we should wait until we see what’s there before declaring that BUSH LIED! and that the whole war was a sham.” Filtered through your radical prisms, I’m sure that sounds like an outrageous thing to do. For those of us living on Planet Earth, it’s simply prudent. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325/120 "2003-08-04T19:12:16Z")
I tried to catch that message before it submitted and retract that last paragraph. It was unnecessary. Let me rephase it as, "To me, this seems like the prudent course of action. If you think that’s a crazy notion, fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-impact-plan-for-iraqi-wmds/192325.md?page=7)