# The Big Question: JFK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559 "2003-08-16T07:58:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/21 "2003-08-16T19:26:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > \*\*The DA who tried to find evidence of a conspiracy? From what I understand, he tried to find allkinds of people who (in his mind) were connected to the conspiracy, One of them (Clay Shaw) was questioned incessantly by Garrison…yet was aquitted by a jury. > They ought to write a book about Garrison-he seems to have been a near-mental case! \*\* He was, he actually had an injunction against him for malicious prosecution. A lawsuit by Shaw was on the verge of succeeding when Shaw died and a fluke of Lousiana law meant the case coudl not continue. Garrison took it as vindication. By the end, Garrison was even abandoned by his fellow buffs. He had made so many promises and failed to deliver. Decades later, the scumbucket sleazebag sometimes known as Olvier Stone would drag Shaw’s naem through the mud once again. [There have been books about Garrison’s nuttiness.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0871318792/qid=1061062409/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/104-6072904-6807128?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/22 "2003-08-16T19:30:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*The House report concluded Oswald fired all the shots that hit the President, but there was a “probable” conspiracy based upon the sounds of an extra gunshot in a police recording that couldn’t have been made by Oswald. \*\* But the sounds were not really sounds of gunshots, they were odd blips on the dictaphone and as it turned out it was not at the time of the assasination [Some details](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/acoustic.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/23 "2003-08-16T19:52:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*The House report concluded Oswald fired all the shots that hit the President, but there was a “probable” conspiracy based upon the sounds of an extra gunshot in a police recording that couldn’t have been made by Oswald. \*\* Later research found evidence that the police microphone from which the recording was made was not in Dealey Plaza at the time of the transmission, but at the Dallas Trade Mart, which was the motorcade’s destination before Kennedy was shot en route. A ringing bell tone is heard shortly after the alleged shots (which are not audible, by the way, but were inferred from inaudible pulses). There is no bell in or near Dealey Plaza. There is a bell outside the Trade Mart. [Specifics](http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles5.html). [Another analysis](http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo2/jfk5/f680.htm) puts the microphone en route from Dealey Plaza to Parkland Hospital, and the bell coming from a nearby church. [The motorcycle officer speaks.](http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/history/the_deed/Sneed/McLain.html) ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/24 "2003-08-16T19:54:12Z")
**Walloon** I went to that link you suggested and found it to be very convincing. I had always thought a “medium-powered” rifle with a jacketed bullet wouldn’t be very destructive. It seems the re-enactment produced results similar to the Zapruder film. Gee, I’m running out of “conspiracy” evidence. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/25 "2003-08-16T19:58:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wolf\_meister \* > \*\*Uncle Bill, > Yes, sometimes the JFK Conspiracy theories can really go off the deep end. However, I think there are some questions that don’t have adequate answers. > > Oswald was firing a rifle that chambered a 6.5 mm cartridge - not what you’d call a “big gun”. > Also, he was firing bullets that had a full metal jacket. Hollow points would have been more effective (lethal) for the job. > Okay, let’s say he wasn’t too choosy about his ammo. If you’ve seen the Zapruder film, the damage to Kennedy’s skull is massive. Granted, getting shot in the head would do serious damage to anyone’s skull and brain. But would a 6.5mm full metal jacketed bullet be **that** destructive? > Also, not to undermine your marksmanship, but I believe that marksman is not the highest rating. I believe “sharpshooter” is considered the best in the military. Oswald ranked at the marksman level. (In all fairness, “marksman” is pretty damned good too). > > Anyway, my questions just don’t seem to have been adequately answered by the “official” sources. \*\* The issue of the best level of accuracy on the range being Expert has been addressed, but the entire evolution is called marksmanship training. I am a four time rifle Expert, three time pistol Expert. I also worked with a Biomedical Engineering professor at Duke while I was an undergrad who was a leading designer of motorcycle helmets. When a trauma occurs to the skull, not even an invasive trauma like a bullet, the brain acts like gelatin and bounces around inside the skull cavity. A bullet of that size entering the skull cavity would cause a shock wave inside, expanding the affected area, and could very well blow out the other side with the accelerated brain tissue and skull fragments, as **Walloon** ’s cite describes. The shortest distance Oswald would have fired from at the range in the Marine Corps is 200 yards. No closer. Without a scope. The assassination shot was made from 265 FEET, or less than 90 yards. WITH a scope. Childs play. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/26 "2003-08-16T19:58:18Z")
This makes me wish I’d asked this question a long time ago. This is the most definitive survey of the evidence and “evidence” I’ve seen - specials and things on TV usually take an Unsolved Mysteries bent and ask questions instead of answering them. Keep it coming, Dopers! If anybody can nail this thing down… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cheesepickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@cheesepickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheesepickles)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/27 "2003-08-16T20:22:01Z")
Keep in mind that Oswald had lots of practice with his rifle. He had been practice firing it for at least weeks prior to the shooting. It’s not like he just picked up the gun one day and started shooting. He especially had an intimate feel for the bolt action, which he would only have had to recycle twice. Also, any incident which is investigated is going to have errors, omissions, and contradictions somewhere along the line. And with this spectacular case being endlessly combed for microscopic detail over the years, there will definitely be a number of minor technical inconsistencies. Many of these honest errors are then attributed to proof of a cover up. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/28 "2003-08-16T20:23:00Z")
The assasination distance was 265 FEET? I’m just an amateur, and I’ve hit a 14" 100yd competition rifle target at 100 yds with a .38 snubnose five times in a row! ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/29 "2003-08-16T20:33:14Z")
Yes, 265 feet. And the distance from the sixth floor window at the time of the shot to Kennedy’s throat was even less: about 190 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/30 "2003-08-16T21:03:50Z")
Why do you believe he had help, UncleBill? ---
**Author:** ![summerbreeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@summerbreeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/summerbreeze)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/31 "2003-08-17T01:56:34Z")
My father was a remarkable sharpshooter. I often saw him ride bareback at a gallop and shoot jackrabbits with a rifle, never missing one as they ran ahead of his horse. He held the rifle with one hand while holding his horse’s mane. He grew up in the wild west, and seemed to think these feats were commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/32 "2003-08-17T02:23:30Z")
**Monty** , **UncleBill** ’s post seems to indicate that he thinks Oswald easily could have done it alone, without any help. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/33 "2003-08-17T02:23:50Z")
The mechanics of the shots I can certainly buy. It is the reason why and the videotaped actions after the fact that raise that question in my mind. Oswald’s “patsy” line was not a denial of guilt, which would be a rational statement (in my mind) but a statement that he was the fall guy. Ruby’s access to the basement for the pistol shot into Oswald is also extremely convenient. Events such as these raise questions that I have not seen addressed to the point that it removes reasonable doubt in my mind. But Oswald acted alone in the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/34 "2003-08-17T02:28:32Z")
To be more clear, I think that Oswald may have been the hired gun for the few involved in the planning of this. I know he got the job at the Book Depository before the motorcade route was made public, and I am not convinced there were NOT others involved. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/35 "2003-08-17T03:22:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jharmon \* > \*\*I don’t know all of the details… but I remember my dad and I laughed out loud when we saw the scene in Stone’s _JFK_ with the view out the window of the book depository and how impossible that shot was. I’ve shot deer from much further away, without any Marine training. I think, like many conspiracy theories, the theorists are vastly underestimating what people are capable of. \*\* No, the theorists are just ignorant. **Most people have never in thier lives fired a rifle.** You have to understand that to the great majority of people, rifle marksmanship is as exotic an activity as hang gliding or SCUBA diving. Such people simply would not know that a shots inside 50-100 yards are easy shots. If you’ve never fired a rifle before, that _sounds_ like a really long way. I had never ever touched an actual firearm before joining the army, and _I_ certainly would have assumed that a 100-yard shot was an amazingly long shot. Only when I actually got a chance to fire one did I understand that rifles are very, very easy to shoot accurately beyond that range. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/36 "2003-08-17T03:39:12Z")
UncleBill, if it’s Ruby’s convenient rub-out of Oswald that’s still holding you up, have you considered what Ruby was doing at the time Oswald was scheduled to be taken out of that building? He was wiring some money at the Western Union office nearby. The only reason that Ruby was there is that they were late coming out with Oswald. Ruby just happened to be there, and was a hothead with poor judgment and a gun. And not only did Oswald get the TSBD job before the motorcade route was made _public_, he got it at a time when the plan was for there to be no motorcade at all. Kennedy was scheduled for a drive to TCU to receive an honarary degree, but they backed out and a motorcade was substituted, _after Oswald had the job_. And then everyone but Connolly wanted to have the luncheon (at the end of the motorcade) at the fairgrouds, which would have taken him nowhere near the TSBD. Connolly insisted that it be at the Trade Mart, which put the logical downtown route right past Oswald. It’s just a big string of sad circumstances, where a loser with a gun was presented with an opportunity to go down in history. I have to say that it’s refreshing to see the level-headed posts in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/37 "2003-08-17T03:48:05Z")
> [@](#): > > To be more clear, I think that Oswald may have been the hired gun for the few involved in the planning of this. I know he got the job at the Book Depository before the motorcade route was made public, and I am not convinced there were NOT others involved. The problem with the theory of Oswald being the shooter for some conspiracy is explaining how this conspiracy worked with Oswald. After the assassination, Oswald’s actions prior to the assassination were carefully investigated. There was no evidence found that Oswald was meeting or communicating with anyone who could have been giving him information or instructions. The closest thing I heard to a credible conspiracy involving the JFK assassination is the idea that the FBI may have distorted evidence after the assassination in an effort to preserve their image. The FBI was supposedly concerned that enough evidence existed about Oswald’s plans that some critics would accuse the FBI of being derelict in not having prevented the assassination. What I’ve read makes some interesting points, but I haven’t heard enough on this issue to feel that the theory is proven. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/38 "2003-08-17T04:07:47Z")
**UncleBill** , there’s nothing mysterious about how Oswald got the job at the Texas School Book Depository: > [@](#): > > On that Monday [October 14, 1963], Mrs. Paine [with whom Marina Oswald was boarding in the Dallas suburb of Irving] mentioned the Oswalds’ financial and employment problems to neighbors whom she was visiting. Mrs. Linnie Mac Randle, who was also present, remarked that she thought that her younger brother, Buell Wesley Frazier, who worked at the Texas School Book Depository, had said that there was a job opening there. When Marina heard of this, she asked Mrs. Paine to call the Depository to see if there was an opening. Mrs. Paine called Roy S. Truly, superintendent of the Depository, who indicated that he would talk to Oswald if he would apply in person. When Oswald telephoned the Paine house on Monday evening, Mrs. Paine told him about this possibility. On the next day, Oswald was interviewed by Truly and hired in a temporary capacity. He began work on Wednesday, October 16. The site of President Kennedy’s luncheon in Dallas, and the route to it, were not even decided until Nov. 14, and not published until Nov. 19. [More here.](http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter2.html#advance) And Oswald [did deny](http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter5.html#legal) to the press, at his Friday midnight press conference, that he shot President Kennedy: > [@](#): > > Q. Did you kill the President? > > A. No. I have not been charged with that. In fact nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question. As for Jack Ruby and Oswald’s transfer from the Dallas Police Headquarters, the amount chance played in the timing should be noted. Only four minutes before the attempted transfer and shooting (11:21 a.m.), Ruby was at a Western Union office wiring money to one of his strippers (we know the exact time from the time stamp — 11:17 a.m. — on his receipt). Had the line been longer at the Western Union office, Ruby would have missed the transfer. Likewise, the transfer was delayed when Oswald asked at the last minute to put on his sweater in the police captain’s office; had he not done that, the transfer would have occurred before Ruby arrived at the underground garage. [Read more.](http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter5.html#possible) ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/39 "2003-08-17T04:11:25Z")
CurtC - yes it is quite a change to see this decades-old debate discussed in a rational logical manner. RickJay - I’d agree with you that most people are unfamiliar with firearms and this probably has been the cause of wild speculation about “impossible shots”, a second gunman, etc. It seems the people who have posted here **do** know something about firearms. (Granted, I was not aware of what the effect of a 6.5mm “slug” would have on the human skull and brain. Now I know all the grisly details). ---
**Author:** ![Silvio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Silvio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silvio)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559/40 "2003-08-17T05:48:35Z")
I was a full blown conspiracy nut for about twenty years, but have converted to a lone gunman guy pretty recently. Eventually, I just had to realize that: the evidence against LHO is overwhelming. the evidence of any conspiracy is extremely slight to non-existent. most importantly, the leaps in logic needed to justify a conspiracy are far beyond what is required to believe in a lone-gunman. Just a few: If it was not LHO in the 6th floor Depository window, who exactly was it? Oswald was intercepted in the lunchroom at pretty much the bare minimum allowable time to escape from the 6th floor. How could another gunman, much less teams of gunmen, come and go unnoticed without a single witness seeing them? All exits from the 6th floor lead to the second floor, the busiest floor in the building because the lunchroom and main offices were there. Stone invents imaginary repairmen coming in and out of the building. In truth, the assasins would need either invisibility or teleportation techology. The standard conspiracy position (at least by the government did it folks) is that LHO was some type of a deep cover agent. If so, he was the most remarkable agent in history. He planned his lone nut cover while he was still in grade school, by unstable and violent behaivor like threatening his family with knives and bragging that he was going to shoot Eisenhower. When he defected to the USSR, he slashed his wrists when he was initially refused, an extremely serious attempt that probably would have killed him without a transfusion. Amazing dedication there. He maintained his nut facade even in his private life, writing demented, rage filled journals and acting like violent nut with his family and friends. What is amazing is that LHO did it all for the sheer sense of duty, as he was never compensated in any way. He worked mostly menial, low wage jobs, was dependent on the charity of family and friends for the basic needs of his family, and was never even able to get his military discharge changed to honorable. Maybe he was just a lone nut after all. It is a remarkable achievement to keep this huge conspiracy a secret for so long…especially when the conspiraters made no effort to keep it a secret. According the the conspiracy lore, the plotters held high level meetings in front of casual acquaintences. LHO was seen in public many times with top CIA operatives. Jack Ruby even paraded LHO around his club and introduced him, and he was even introduced to other witnesses as a CIA man! The assasins had no problems spilling the details of the conspiracy to a junkie prostitute like Rose Cherami, and top level mobsters like Marcello blurt out their involvement in front of casual associates on a number of occasins. On the day of the assasination, the plotters casually double park on a busy road to unload the weapons. Does any of this really make sense? If “the government” or even the mob really wanted to bring down JFK, could there have been easier ways to do it. The Secret Service or CIA could have sent in a bimbo with a poison dart under her nail, or dosed the heavy dosages of medications that JFK required. Even better, why kill him at all? Plant some stragically placed spy cameras, and send photos of JFK and RFK in incriminating positions with interns and Marilyn Monroe and send them to the media. That would have ruined and disgraced both Kennedy brothers without a messy and risky assasination that made JFK a martyr. The so-called planted evidence is really stupid. Why plant a nearly pristine bullet near the body? All the fragments were already tracable to LHO’s gun, and the plotter must have guessed that additional shots would be found in the body, totally wrecking the plan with too many shots. Why fake a picture of Oswald in his backyard holding the gun? We already knew he was a commie, we already knew he owned the gun, so why an elaborate fake? The total absence of any even remotely credible witness seeing any shooter other than LHO really nails it. The so-called grassy knoll shooter was right off the sidewalk, surrounded by people IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, directly across from about a dozen witnesses who not only should have seen him, but could have not avoided seeing him. So why didn’t anyone get a glimpse? Oswald, in a much more secluded location, was spotted by several witnesses. I fully expect JFK conspiracy theorists to start coming up with paranormal explanations to explain some of these things. Jim Marrs, whose book CROSSFIRE was one of the main sources of JFK the movie, is now firmly in David Icke territory. Some of the other leading “researchers” are right behind him. So I fully expect a new book to come out any day now explaining how the assasination was actually carried out by CIA operatives working for our repitilian alien overlords, using teleportation and time bending techology, and that LHO was actually grown in an alien testtube. For the rest of us… LHO acted alone. However, at the time of the assasination, numerous imaginary assasins, hiding in fictional locations and firing pretend bullets, participated. Since they never existed, they were easily able to vanish without a trace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-question-jfk/195559.md?page=3)