# the big SELF DETERMINATION thread: Catalonia, Calexit, Brexit, Civil War, & Revolutionary War **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767 "2017-10-01T22:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/41 "2017-10-02T18:38:23Z")
I’ll cast my vote and say that, generally speaking, a region that represents a viable country should be allowed to secede if they democratically express that desire. All the ones in the OP, Catalonia, California, Scotland, Puerto Rico, and Quebec, qualify as a viable country. There’s very good arguments why these places shouldn’t secede, but I don’t think that justifies forcing a region to remain part of a country. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/42 "2017-10-03T14:37:30Z")
The other side of the argument is how much the rest of the country might lose if a region secceedes. It could lose an important port (eg Singapores seccession from the Malaysian federation) or access to the sea. It might lose an important resource such as Oil, for example the Biafran war in Nigeria and the mineral wealth of Katanga in Congo. Scottish independence would have compromised the hugely expensive UK nuclear deterrent which is based in Scotland. It may encourage other regions of neighbouring states to also secceede (eg Kurdistan leaving Iraq would also affect Turkey, Syria and Iran.) The Catalans and the Kurds seem to have picked up the idea of a Referendum to push their case from the recent Scottish independence and UK Brexit vote. Who in turn picked it up from the historic Quebec seperatist campaigns. So there you go, blame Canada! Divorce is a messy business and there are always two sides to the story and there are arguments over the consequencies and usually someone has to pick up the tab. But in emotional terms, it is all very black and white. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/43 "2017-10-03T16:00:52Z")
I believe in self determination, although there should be some status quo bias. Choosing to join or leave a state is a very momentous decision and should not be decided by simple majorities. It should require a super majority, 2/3rds or 3/4ths. But if the people of a particular place feel strongly that they should no longer be a part of their country, and they have a legitimate reason for feeling seperation is the only solution, then I’m all for it. I define legitimate reasons as: 1. Speaking a different language and the majority language is dominant. 2. Having a different religion and it’s hard to live and work in the country with the majority religion 3. Starkly different political beliefs by region. Such as the South and the North just can’t agree on anything at all. 4. These problems cannot be resolved through self government within the larger entity because the larger entity won’t respect their right to self government. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/44 "2017-10-03T16:06:30Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > It could lose an important port (eg Singapores seccession from the Malaysian federation) or access to the sea. I thought it was more like Malaysia seceded from Singapore? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/45 "2017-10-03T16:16:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’ll cast my vote and say that, generally speaking, a region that represents a viable country should be allowed to secede if they democratically express that desire. All the ones in the OP, Catalonia, California, Scotland, Puerto Rico, and Quebec, qualify as a viable country. There’s very good arguments why these places shouldn’t secede, but I don’t think that justifies forcing a region to remain part of a country. Since single cities like Luxembourg, Monaco, Vatican City, and Singapore have been countries, ‘viable country’ is a pretty low bar for determining a region that should be able to secede. I’m also not sure if a country like Calexitfornia should really be considered viable when a foreign country owns 45% of their land area straight up and controls their water supply. Or the when less-than-state-sized-but-larger-than-a city areas that don’t support secession counter secede from it; if we assume a Trump-Clinton like split in Calexit’s votes, then there are a lot of agricultural areas in the state that can muster a majority vote to stay in the US or just Calexitexit. You’re also saying that countries should not protect the rights of minorities - if a region like, say, the former Confederacy (which would be a viable country) decided by a 51% vote to leave the US so they wouldn’t have that pesky supreme court interfering with how they treat blacks, your position is that the US government should simply write off any American citizens in the area, and subject them to the mercy of the local authorities. That doesn’t really seem like a morally good or workable position. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/46 "2017-10-03T17:56:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s a trade off. > > The more people that there are in a given society, the more resources and the more land, the more that society will flourish. > > The downside is that the more people you have in a society, the more opinions on how that society should be run there are, and the more people disappointed that it will not run the way they would like it to be. > > If we can learn to get along, we will be better together for it, the more the merrier. But, I suppose if we cannot, then a divorce is sometimes the least bad option. > > A balance of sovereignty and codependency is a tough one to find, especially when there are differing opinions on where that balance should be. > > There is not going to be a once size fits all solution, and not just for different populations, but also for different times. Small countries are both better off economically and politically. The reason for large countries is that they are able to have bigger military and are harder to conquer. Since we are in a time where there is very little conquering going on, it makes sense to countries to get smaller. However, it seems odd for a region to be able to make a unilateral decision to end a country. There needs to be a vote not just in the region but in the country as a whole as to whether the region can leave. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/47 "2017-10-03T19:56:05Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I thought it was more like Malaysia seceded from Singapore? So it was! A very odd case of a port city being kicked out of a larger country.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/48 "2017-10-03T20:09:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Should “people” (loosely defined by the examples in the title) have the right to self determination / independence? > > There are other examples I can think of too: Scotland, Quebec, Puerto Rico, etc. > > The USA is in the weird position of having been started by a revolution for the right to govern themselves and then morphing into opposing it in the cases of the Conferederate States and, more recently, Californians. Were we wrong then or are we wrong now? The principal of the American Revolution was founded in Enlightenment era Humanist philosophy. Every man is equal and government should be an outgrowth of mankind’s desire to maintain order, rather than something which is established by force, by someone seeking to control the people for its own enrichment. A morally acceptable government should be established by the people, serve with their consent, and be run by those who are trusted by the people to represent their interests. For the Americans to split off was philosophically justified - just as it would be philosophically justified for a woman who was kidnapped and kept locked up in a basement to break down the door and escape. And it’s probably reasonable to say that even if, for example, the Iraqi government uses a properly functioning representational system, the fact that the Kurdistan people never really had choice in the matter on whether to join it or not, and that the Iraqi state itself only really exists as a unit due to the British actively segmenting things up so that rival factions could be played off against one another, would both give a pretty strong argument that they have no duty to stay a part of Iraq. With the American Civil War, on the other hand, the fact is that the South was dutifully represented in government, in accordance with the laws that they had helped to write and accepted as sufficient to ensure that their interests would be given due and proper consideration. They tried to leave simply because they lost a vote and, childishly, couldn’t accept the fact. (One might also note that their aims were morally unsupportable.) That said, just as you shouldn’t expect a husband and wife to stay together, no matter what, simply because they have both agreed to a set of terms on how to live together, it probably should be accepted that there are certain justifiable causes for a region to separate from a whole. But the criteria would need to be much more tightly defined and strictly enforced than what we have today. The problem is that, once you start accepting “divorce” on the part of sub-populations, then where does it stop? Say that Catalan breaks off; then Western Catalan decides to break off from that; etc. Where does it end? On the one hand, you could say that there’s always the Anarchist’s dream that everyone should be his own sovereign unit, and certainly that is in accord with the general concept of human rights. But realistically, such a move is just one towards every wife beater and a-hole becoming his own sovereign state. Want to be an evil tyrant? Divorce yourself from the territory you’re in. Same as the American South tried to do. There’s also the problem that an open “divorce” clause allows other nations to use advertising and propaganda to split up their enemies by creating and amplifying rifts. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/49 "2017-10-03T21:36:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The problem with self-determination is, how do you define a people? Are Californians a people, or are they just part of the people of America? How about Orange Countians? Or Angelenos? Or Hollywoodites? LAers and OCers hate each other like NoCals and SoCals or the Scots and the English. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/50 "2017-10-03T21:52:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There needs to be a vote not just in the region but in the country as a whole as to whether the region can leave. Well then, of course the British crown would have voted for the colonists to stay, and the Union for the Confederacy to stay. :dubious::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/51 "2017-10-03T22:15:19Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Okay, overall, I’m going to go with a firm NO. Peoples “should” assuredly NOT be seen to have the right to straight up self determination. At least, not in any of the exact contexts referred to, or in the manner referred to in particular. > > The biggest element or factor in this discussion which has so far been overlooked or ignored, is that it isn’t ever JUST the people who are involved with the ‘to leave or not to leave" idea. There is also the territory the people live on to consider, as well as the entire structure of the existing states’ defense system, their economic considerations, their natural resources, and the geographic and ecological integrity of the region involved. > > If individual states are allowed to secede at will, it becomes impossible to calculate a national budget, any national policies, and international trade systems, or even road building plans. > > Should California be able, by itself, to take away one of the primary port cities of the entire United States? The majority of the entire nations’ access to the Pacific Ocean? Just because they happen to live there this week? To overnight, remove the entire tax base of the largest state economy of the nation, including the headquarters of a number of national businesses? > > Again, I have to say no. That would entail empowering small groups of people to decide the fate of the larger nation itself, which is absurd, and goes against the concept of…this idea of self-determination thing. So do you believe the UK was wrong to let Australia / Canada go? Should they have fought a war to keep them in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/52 "2017-10-03T23:27:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Well then, of course the British crown would have voted for the colonists to stay, and the Union for the Confederacy to stay. :dubious::rolleyes: Several former British colonies were given independence by a vote of the UK Parliament, albeit often gradually. The Statute of Westminster 1931 granted independence to British colonies that were legally dominions. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/53 "2017-10-04T18:35:54Z")
WW2 marked the beginning of the end of the European colonial Empires. By the 1960s decolonisation really gathered pace and some years saw many new nation states established one after the other. It was also the policy of the US and USSR to support independence movements to which they were politically aligned and this competition led to a lot of instability in these new states. The Cold war was fought in these new states and inspired many coups and secessions. Nations do not exist in a political vacuum. I think it is important to make a distinction between colonies that may be very distant, run by settlers and planters linked by a long-distance trade route; compared with a region of a long established state such as Catalan, Scotland or Quebec. The latter are highly integrated into the country they wish to leave, both politically and economically. It is much more difficult to disentangle the interests of each side and there has to be an agreement on how to do it fairly. The UK Brexit negotiations are proving to be tortuous and will take years to resolve and this is simply membership of a treaty organisation, not a nation-state. It will be interesting to see how this is handled in Spain with the Catalans. It is not looking like either side is willing to compromise, it is all brinkmanship.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/54 "2017-10-04T21:23:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Czechoslovakia. :smack: Yeah, that’s a perfect on-point example that I really should have remembered. My love of the halfling’s leaf has clearly slowed my mind. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/55 "2017-10-05T07:33:57Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > I think it is important to make a distinction between colonies that may be very distant, run by settlers and planters linked by a long-distance trade route; compared with a region of a long established state such as Catalan, Scotland or Quebec. The latter are highly integrated into the country they wish to leave, both politically and economically. That’s true, but Algeria was legally an integral part of France rather than a colony, and separated by water but not that far away. Meanwhile, French Guiana is all the way in South America and still remains French territory. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/56 "2017-10-05T11:47:12Z")
France and Algeria was rather a special case where the political strength of the settlers in France and with the military caused a constitutional crisis. France got another Republic. That battle and the vicious Algerian war still resonates in French culture and politics. Rhodesia was an example of a British colony where the settlers seized control and created their own government - unilateral declaration of independence. The first from a British colony since the US revolutionary war. Unfortunately, like many of these liberation movements, they often do not represent all of the people in a country. Just a particular group who control the important resources and military assets. Not many lasted long as peaceful democracies. European states have the EU, which is very for good small states. The big economies contribute lots of cash that goes towards improving the infrastructure and economy of smaller, weaker economies. The small states get a seat at the big tables, their leaders go to lots of international conferences and generally get to feel quite important. Politicians and officials are quite keen on that sort of thing. Regions that want independence think they can become economically viable if they immediately join the EU. Scotland would have been first in line, so too will the Catalans. However, the larger states in the EU are not keen to encourage these separatist movements. Most nation states have a constitutional fault line somewhere and they have no wish to see them widen into a crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/57 "2017-10-07T06:38:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So do you believe the UK was wrong to let Australia / Canada go? Should they have fought a war to keep them in the UK? Canada and Australia were never part of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2017, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/58 "2017-10-07T07:53:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are other examples I can think of too: Scotland, Quebec, Puerto Rico, etc. > > The USA is in the weird position of having been started by a revolution for the right to govern themselves and then morphing into opposing it in the cases of the Conferederate States and, more recently, Californians. Were we wrong then or are we wrong now? > > What about the Spanish kicking Catalonians in the teeth? Is Britain right with Brexit and respecting the outcome of the Scottish independence referendum (presumably, if the decision had been to go, the UK would have let them. If you were wearing a tinfoil hat, you might think someone was intent on destabilising the West and playing a long game. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/59 "2017-10-07T10:09:27Z")
The common factor in each of these examples of a region or nation wanting independence is that they are each part of some larger political unit: a federation in the case of the US, a political union in the case of the UK, an economic union in the case of the EU. In the past colonial empires had various grades of inclusion. The politics of these federations and unions can be stable for a time, but they can tend towards unification or they loosen and fall apart. Generally, as they get larger, they become more unstable because they have to reconcile the divergent interests of quite disparate members. They can either be viewed as repressive or a vehicle for co-operative progress. Catalonia may regard the Spanish state as repressive, but I am pretty sure they want to be part of the EU and various other alliances, as indeed were the Scots. While the Brexiteers of the UK regard the EU as tending towards becoming a federal state that progressively requires its members to give up their national sovereignty. Something they regard as unacceptable. The problems of being outside of any of the major trading blocs and the negative effect that might have on the economy is not something they think about much.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2017, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767/60 "2017-10-07T11:23:34Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > The problems of being outside of any of the major trading blocs and the negative effect that might have on the economy is not something they think about much.:dubious: Tell that to Japan. Tell that to Korea. Tell that to any number of countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-self-determination-thread-catalonia-calexit-brexit-civil-war-revolutionary-war/797767.md?page=4)