# The big three Automakers throw themselvels under the bus. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913 "2008-11-21T21:26:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/21 "2008-11-22T04:46:54Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > Maybe it makes a difference whether you live in a" right-to-work" state or not. > > My 24-year union job in Nebraska included a lot of time spent cleaning up stuff. > > Whenever contract time came around and management proposed “crossing crafts”–making us plant operators do more of the routine maintenance of our equipment and reserving the big repair jobs for the maintenance crafts-- our attitude was always that we never turned down work, but that we weren’t gonna do it for nothing. > > So we always took on the extra work, and they always gave us decent raises. > > Would they have teated us so decently without a union? I say probably not. Is Nebraska a “right to work” state? Tennessee (where I live) certainly is. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/22 "2008-11-22T04:47:30Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Tesla is building 100 thousand dollar cars. Any one can do that. Mass production and affordable cost is what distinguishes an auto maker from a pretender. You’re right. They should let the taxpayer keep the $25 billion so they can buy cars from companies that can profitably mass produce cars, like Toyota and Nissan. ---
**Author:** ![DadWagonDriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/23 "2008-11-22T04:54:26Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > I’d kind of like to be in a position to say to those CEOs, “Okay, you’ve convinced me it’s necessary for the good of the country to save your companies. One thing: you have to resign, today, and leave with no severance pay, no stock options, no bonus. Since you fucked it up.” I’m not sure I entirely agree. I mean, Rick Wagoner has been at the helm of GM for quite some time now, but Alan Mulally has been at Ford for less than two years, and took over a company that was going down the shitter even more quickly than it is now. Isn’t Chrysler’s CEO fairly new as well? Shouldn’t he and Mulally be given more time to do what they were hired to do? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/24 "2008-11-22T05:13:12Z")
> [@wmulax93](#): > > I’m not sure I entirely agree. I mean, Rick Wagoner has been at the helm of GM for quite some time now, but Alan Mulally has been at Ford for less than two years, and took over a company that was going down the shitter even more quickly than it is now. Isn’t Chrysler’s CEO fairly new as well? Shouldn’t he and Mulally be given more time to do what they were hired to do? Out of control spending on executive luxuries written into policy as ‘security measures’ by prior CEOs who wanted an excuse to HAVE to fly around in private jets? ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/25 "2008-11-22T06:14:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Out of control spending on executive luxuries written into policy as ‘security measures’ by prior CEOs who wanted an excuse to HAVE to fly around in private jets? These guys… The whole thing just goes to show you how horrible leaders they are. They come to DC to ask for 25 billion. Do they have a plan of how they are going to use that money to improve their situation? No. So when they decide to fly (individually!) to DC on their private jets, does it give them pause? Of course not. If they don’t know that politicians wouldn’t crucify them over this then it is their own fault and short-sightedness. Had they not seen the outrage at the other recipients-of-corporate-welfare’s post-bailout excesses? It’s been huge news! They are simply fools who deserve to go under. Personally I’m not a huge fan of labor unions. On the other hand, I do think we need upwards wage pressure. I like the way unions work in some countries, but here they seem to be a detriment. The non-UAW employees of Detroit seem to be getting a raw deal, for example. As far as I’m concerned, Detroit has to be cut loose. Let them sink or swim. Our economy is already in the shitter, we might as well take the chance to re-organize our dead-weight industries while we’re at it. They’ve been unable to compete for a long time now, but have coasted along on a mixture of national-pride and SUV sales. I guarantee you, given the opportunity to have low gas prices and sell more SUV’s they’d take it in a heartbeat. The worst thing about Detroit is how I’ve heard year after year about how they make decisions about what the market wants or not, and they invariably choose the most idiotic, short-sighted choices. Sometimes what the market wants, and what the market _doesn’t yet know_ it wants are two different things. A lot of people have gotten rich by selling things people didn’t previously know they needed. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/26 "2008-11-22T07:47:15Z")
> [@Merkwurdigliebe](#): > > A lot of people have gotten rich by selling things people didn’t previously know they needed. Like hybrid cars. I think the Big Three automakers, whether they are bailed out by the government or not, should fire their executives and outsource those jobs to Japan. Honda and Toyota are able to run America factories with Japanese execs and turn a profit, why not GM, Ford, and Chrysler? ---
**Author:** ![phil417](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6bbea6/32.png) [@phil417](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phil417)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/27 "2008-11-22T08:31:09Z")
I don’t know about all three of the “Big 3”, but how about GM? I live in Flint, MI, which used to call itself “Buick City” & was proud to have hosted the UAW (United Auto Workers) sitdown strike of 1933. I moved to Flint in Jan. 1976, & was immediately impressed by how GM ran the city. Everyone wanted to work for Buick, at one of the many factories in the area. Every other business in the area centered about Buick. Garages worked on Buicks/GM cars. Local garages, cafes/restaurants/luncheons had the factories on speed dial (& vice versa). (The same was said about the local massage parlors.) And the UAW got their share. Why? I asked a coworker whose dad had been part of the union back in the old days. She told me in depth about the 1933 sitdown strike. I asked her, what’s the union done for GM workers since then? She told me that every few years the union told workers to go out on strike. So the union gave the workers an unpaid vacation? Not exactly, I was told. The workers got “strike wages”, full insurance during the strike, and (interesting for this area) the strikes were usually during Michigan’s deer season. Anyway, most of Buick left Flint years ago, just after Michigan stopped offering Buick tax breaks. Make of this what you will. Flint is trying to remake itself as a college town or of interest to tourists. Personally, I like living here. We’ve good people. Love, Phil ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/28 "2008-11-22T14:43:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Tesla is building 100 thousand dollar cars. Any one can do that. Mass production and affordable cost is what distinguishes an auto maker from a pretender. [http://www.cleanfleetreport.com/vault/tesla.htm](http://www.cleanfleetreport.com/vault/tesla.htm) > [@Tesla](#): > > “Tesla’s second model will be a roomy four door family car starting at $50,000, to be manufactured in our own plant in New Mexico beginning in 2009. Our third model will follow as quickly as we can, and will be more affordable still. Surprise! ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/29 "2008-11-22T14:56:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > They should let the taxpayer keep the $25 billion so they can buy cars from companies that can profitably mass produce cars, like Toyota and Nissan. This would be the correct answer. Let GM and Ford file for bankruptcy protection. They can restructure and move on. Various startups will be able to pick up some auto production facilities for cheap and if they’ve got a good product they can shake up the market. Consumers will still buy cars, so there will still be jobs making cars - just not as many with General Motors. Failing that, if the Big 3 get a bailout, can I have one too? It’ll be cheap! I don’t need 25 billion. 10 million would do nicely. I’m not even an American, but I promise that bailing me out would be good for the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/30 "2008-11-22T15:12:03Z")
> [@wmulax93](#): > > Shouldn’t he and Mulally be given more time to do what they were hired to do? Mulally, at least, is a highly talented guy. He was responsible for the 777 at Boeing, by all accounts running a very well-coordinated project (which was ridiculously complex in terms of some of the international coordination that went on). And yeah, as you say, he took on a company very much in the shitter already, staking his reputation on turning it around. Two years at the helm of a sinking ship isn’t remotely enough to be blamed for the ills of the US auto industry. This is not to say that taking a private jet to bailout talks isn’t a bad move symbolically, but calling for the wholesale sacking of the top brass is just grandstanding that won’t help anyone. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/31 "2008-11-22T15:29:56Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Failing that, if the Big 3 get a bailout, can I have one too? It’ll be cheap! I don’t need 25 billion. 10 million would do nicely. I’m not even an American, but I promise that bailing me out would be good for the economy. Sarcasm aside, this is an excellent point. **gonzomax** seems to think GM should get free money from hard-working Americans (and since Canada’s caught up in this too, Canadians.) So, I should be expected to have money taken from me, money I could have used to buy things from productive companies, and given to GM, a company whose track record suggests they’ll simply burn through it in three years and then beg me for more money. Since there is no evidence whatsoever GM has any plans on how to fix itself, I can assume that this will be a lifetime obligation; whenever there’s a recession, money will be taken from me and given to GM so they can fuel their private jets and pay unskilled workers more than I make. Well, fuck them. Where’s my bailout? If I were given a tiny fraction of that money - let’s say a million dollars - I absolutely guarantee you I will set up a business and employ several people productively for many years. With a million dollars I could finally afford to set up my management services firm I’ve always wanted to. I’d start out employing not only myself but two or three other people, and with that kind of capitalization I’d be profitable almost immediately and grow, employing even more people. My company would, like all companies, need to buy services from other companies, thereby allowing them to pay their employees. So I’d like **gonzomax** and everyone else who supports this outrageous bailout to explain to me why I DON’T deserve a big gob of free money to employ people, but GM, _who have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they cannot run a successful business anymore,_ deserves a bigger gob of money. Money given to GM, according to all the available evidence, will be lost and the company will simply go belly up in 2010. Money given to me at least has a reasonable CHANCE of creating a profitable business in the long term. I’d even promise to pay higher taxes on my profits to pay the money back. In fact, I’ll put together an actual BUSINESS PLAN for what I’d do with the million dollars. I’ll have capital and labor expense plans, revenue projections, marketing plans and some market studies, and I’ll do all that on my own time and dime. Which puts me way ahead of Rick Wagoner, the multimillion-dollar “CEO” who didn’t think to actually have an idea of what he’d do with the money he was begging for. I’ll have a detailed, to-the-dollar, spread-sheet laden plan of how I’m going to spend my bailout and why it will make money. It seems to me I am a much, much better risk. But you know what? As much as I’d like the bailout for Richard Jones Business Services, I’ll be reasonable content if they just don’t TAKE the money I have now to bail out Richard Wagoner’s Wasting Money Stupidly company, aka GM. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/32 "2008-11-22T16:05:52Z")
I wasn’t actually trying to make a point aside from the sarcasm. 🙂 Not that I disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/33 "2008-11-22T16:24:09Z")
I do not think that letting the big 3 fail at this time,when we can likely save them, would be good for the country. This is a bad economic time. Letting them fail will make it much worse. For me it is that simple. A lot of suppliers and small businesses will suffer. The paying of hundreds of thousands of unemployment benefits would be rough. More bankruptcies and foreclosures would add to an already serious problem. I do not think it would be wise. ---
**Author:** ![Punintentional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punintentional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punintentional)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/34 "2008-11-22T16:58:20Z")
Would anyone here honestly care if they took a commercial flight, but had a $5,000 suit? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/35 "2008-11-22T17:11:50Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > Coming to Washington on private corporate jets asking for 25 Billion, nobody ever thought that this might be a bad idea? Doesn’t seem to hurt Al Gore too much. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/36 "2008-11-22T18:04:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But you know what? As much as I’d like the bailout for Richard Jones Business Services, I’ll be reasonable content if they just don’t TAKE the money I have now to bail out Richard Wagoner’s Wasting Money Stupidly company, aka GM. Good point. Congress, how 'bout taking a look at who _won’t_ have $25 billion, in order that the Big 3 and the UAW will. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/37 "2008-11-22T18:33:35Z")
One way to look at is if you’re trying to save your multi-national corporation, do you really want run the risk of missing the hearings because your flight was delayed and you missed a connection? Still, it does present a perception problem. That said, if you’re applying for a loan, you need to have supporting paperwork in place to prove that 1)You’re a worthy person to lend money to and 2)You have the wherewithal to pay it back. If Honda, Toyota, et al are doing fine, why can’t Ford and GM just emulate what they’re doing? I don’t see the CEO of Honda cornering senators and asking them for money. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/38 "2008-11-22T18:48:50Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > One way to look at is if you’re trying to save your multi-national corporation, do you really want run the risk of missing the hearings because your flight was delayed and you missed a connection? The estimated cost of a private jet (round trip) was $20,000. The estimated cost of taking a flight 1 day early and staying the night in a hotel, eating out for dinner at a gourmet restaurant, hiring 3 hookers for that evening, taking a limousine to Congress the next day, and flying back the next day: less. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/39 "2008-11-22T18:52:35Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > One way to look at is if you’re trying to save your multi-national corporation, do you really want run the risk of missing the hearings because your flight was delayed and you missed a connection? Still, it does present a perception problem. Fly in the day before? Which I suppose they did anyway. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/40 "2008-11-22T18:56:09Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > The estimated cost of a private jet (round trip) was $20,000. > > The estimated cost of taking a flight 1 day early and staying the night in a hotel, eating out for dinner at a gourmet restaurant, hiring 3 hookers for that evening, taking a limousine to Congress the next day, and flying back the next day: less. The look on their faces when they weren’t handed a blank check: priceless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913.md?page=3)