# The big three Automakers throw themselvels under the bus. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913 "2008-11-21T21:26:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/61 "2008-11-23T03:41:11Z")
Businesses that would be hurt: Steel mills Mining Auto dealerships Auto salesmen Restaurants Bars Charities Sporting events golf courses Auto suppliers-head light manufacturers-tire makers-mechanics-design companies-mill rights-construction companies- movie theaters books and magazines computer and other home electronics health clubs doctors and hospitals home sales home repair credit unions and banks colleges tax bases which support schools private schools And so many more. It would be cutting our own throats. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/62 "2008-11-23T03:56:50Z")
Frankly, I’ve seen this coming for 30 years. In the late 70’s, when the Japanese companies were first making inroads into US market share, Detroit was talking out of both sides of their mouths with regards to the competition - declaring that their marketing departments were telling them that Americans wanted the cars they were making - while also saying that they needed protection from the Japanese. Even as a teenager, I could see the lie. You can’t stand there looking confused, telling me that your fucking marketing department is saying one thing while the market is telling you something completely different. This is bullshit. You need to fire your marketing department. So for thirty years, they’ve been digging this hole, getting deeper and deeper, aided by cheap gas and an uninterested Government. But all along, as their debt continued to climb, their sale continued to sink, and their labor commitments continued to grow - the signs were clear. _This will end badly._ Well, we’ve reached the end of the line. While I for one do NOT want to see the wreckage this causes on the American Economy as a whole, nor the long term damage it does to American Manufacturing, it’s bloody clear that we can’t continue to allow these same **complete fucking morons** to manage this business. They can’t do it. They don’t know how. If this was China, or Soviet Russia, these guys would be publicly executed for their crimes against the American People. Not saying that we should do that, just thinking that we, and they, need to recognize how badly they’ve performed and just how big of a mess they’ve left the rest of us to clean up. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/63 "2008-11-23T04:01:03Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > If the US had national health care these companies would be quite competitive with their foreign competition. That cost is enormous. And it would somehow become tiny with national health care? Do you imagine a healthcare scheme under which employers make no contribution (taxes or otherwise) to the costs? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/64 "2008-11-23T04:09:25Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If this was China, or Soviet Russia, these guys would be publicly executed for their crimes against the American People. Fortunately, we live in a country that claims (claimed?) to be able to recognize the difference between public and private organizations. Big 3 execs were stupid, but (AFAIK) not criminal. So we don’t jail or execute them. For much the same reason, we shouldn’t bail them out. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/65 "2008-11-23T04:51:06Z")
[http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a3ArjWNoRSKw&refer=worldwide](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a3ArjWNoRSKw&refer=worldwide) This make sense to you people. [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/business/23citi.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/business/23citi.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all) And this is how and why. This is a lot more than 25 bill to save jobs across the country. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/66 "2008-11-23T05:05:07Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > And it would somehow become tiny with national health care? Do you imagine a healthcare scheme under which employers make no contribution (taxes or otherwise) to the costs? Are you aware of how much taxes corporations pay? Especially foreign corporations? Read this article and be enlightened. [http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1249465620080812?sp=true](http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1249465620080812?sp=true) The problem, once again, is not unions of hardworking employees, but rather the refusal of various managements to pay taxes and the refusal of our government, which has been bought by those managements, to make all of them pay a fair share. Real live persons pay quite a bit of taxes in this country. Big companies? Little to none. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/67 "2008-11-23T05:24:45Z")
[QUOTE=The Second Stone] Are you aware of how much taxes corporations pay? Especially foreign corporations? Read this article and be enlightened. [/QUOTE] The only way that article will enlighten you is if you set it on fire. It’s been cited on the SDMB before and completely debunked. I mean, just read it carefully. Note this statement, which is the heart of the article: “72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.” Think, just for a moment, about what that statement ACTUALLY means. Remember that corporate income tax is based on profit. Remember that a corporation that fails to make a profit does not pay income tax. So, in other words, this statement means no more than that in a seven year period, 57 to 72 percent of corporations at at least one year out of the 7 in which they did not make a profit. Why does that strike you as being outrageous? > [@gonzomax](#): > > Businesses that would be hurt: > Steel mills > Mining > Auto dealerships > Auto salesmen > Restaurants > Bars > Charities > Sporting events > golf courses > Auto suppliers-head light manufacturers-tire makers-mechanics-design companies-mill rights-construction companies- > movie theaters > books and magazines > computer and other home electronics > health clubs > doctors and hospitals > home sales > home repair > credit unions and banks > colleges > tax bases which support schools > private schools > And so many more. It would be cutting our own throats. Here’s a list of businesses that would be hurt if they DO pass the bailout: Steel mills Mining Auto dealerships Auto salesmen Restaurants Bars Charities Sporting events golf courses Auto suppliers-head light manufacturers-tire makers-mechanics-design companies-mill rights-construction companies movie theaters books and magazines computer and other home electronics health clubs doctors and hospitals home sales home repair credit unions and banks colleges tax bases which support schools private schools And so many more. It would be cutting our own throats. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/68 "2008-11-23T05:30:53Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The problem, once again, is not unions of hardworking employees, but rather the refusal of various managements to pay taxes… And here I thought we were discussing your healthcare cost issue. ---
**Author:** ![bubba\_jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@bubba\_jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba_jr)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/69 "2008-11-23T06:58:17Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > the refusal of various managements to pay taxes and the refusal of our government, which has been bought by those managements, to make all of them pay a fair share. I’m half owner of one of those evil corporations, its a whole 2 people, but still an evil corporation none the less. Last year we pushed through about $180k, made a profit of $837, paid federal taxes on that profit of less than $300, so a little more than 1/10th of 1% tax rate on the money we raked in, we made out like bandits right??? Not even close. > [@](#): > > Real live persons pay quite a bit of taxes in this country. Big companies? Little to none. Money went to me and money went to my partner so that we could have a roof over our heads and food, we got raped a bit on those earnings, but still didn’t make out too well, my partner qualified for food stamps, and I got back $135 of the $200 in state taxes I paid before I quit my full time job. We lease our building, the owner pays taxes on that. We buy machines and tools and materials, which help other businesses employee people so they can pay taxes. The goal this year, ZERO profit, end of the year bonuses to the high on the hog corporate officers, one of which qualified for food stamps last year, as for me, I didn’t qualify for food stamps, but I’m going to have heat this winter. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/70 "2008-11-23T14:21:38Z")
AIG went through 85 billion all by itself. Then came back for more. They are up to about 150 billion and that is one company. And those are the guys that actually crippled our financial system. They lost money in credit swaps which is not a production product with production workers. It is just a scam engineered by bankers to sell something they should not have sold. Lets give them some more. As they get it they shed jobs by the thousands. Yet the big three would actually keep jobs. These are the people who should be providing a detailed business plan. The rush to destroy the US manufacturing base is stupid. The engine that jump started the financial miracle in India and China was our manufacturing base. We moved it there. We may as well get rid of the autos and airplanes we manufacture and move them too. They are made by people who get dirty. They are not important like an insurer or banker. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/71 "2008-11-24T03:32:47Z")
Citi group is going for a huge bailout perhaps Monday. I am sure you all want to see a business plan first. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/72 "2008-11-24T03:40:40Z")
> [@bubba\_jr](#): > > I’m half owner of one of those evil corporations, its a whole 2 people, but still an evil corporation none the less. Last year we pushed through about $180k, made a profit of $837, paid federal taxes on that profit of less than $300, so a little more than 1/10th of 1% tax rate on the money we raked in, we made out like bandits right??? Not even close. > > Money went to me and money went to my partner so that we could have a roof over our heads and food, we got raped a bit on those earnings, but still didn’t make out too well, my partner qualified for food stamps, and I got back $135 of the $200 in state taxes I paid before I quit my full time job. > > We lease our building, the owner pays taxes on that. We buy machines and tools and materials, which help other businesses employee people so they can pay taxes. > > The goal this year, ZERO profit, end of the year bonuses to the high on the hog corporate officers, one of which qualified for food stamps last year, as for me, I didn’t qualify for food stamps, but I’m going to have heat this winter. And I own all of a corporation and I pay quite a bit in taxes. The point being that big companies pay little or none. And it has been that way for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/73 "2008-11-24T03:46:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The only way that article will enlighten you is if you set it on fire. It’s been cited on the SDMB before and completely debunked. I mean, just read it carefully. Note this statement, which is the heart of the article: > . Well I know about the article and so do many others and it is completely accepted. You have cited nothing. The GAO report (beware PDF) [http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08957.pdf](http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08957.pdf) is not subject to dismissal out of hand. Corporations do not pay taxes as citizens do, and it is a fact. The Christian Science Monitor also agrees. [How to earn $3.5 trillion and pay zero taxes - CSMonitor.com](http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0419/p16s03-cogn.html) The only thing that is full of bunk is opinions that corporations are taxed fairly when compared to people. Dismissing the GAO, Reuters and The Monitor in one citeless sweep is beneath contempt. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/74 "2008-11-24T13:24:57Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Frankly, I’ve seen this coming for 30 years. > > In the late 70’s, when the Japanese companies were first making inroads into US market share, Detroit was talking out of both sides of their mouths with regards to the competition - declaring that their marketing departments were telling them that Americans wanted the cars they were making - while also saying that they needed protection from the Japanese. Even as a teenager, I could see the lie. You can’t stand there looking confused, telling me that your fucking marketing department is saying one thing while the market is telling you something completely different. This is bullshit. You need to fire your marketing department. > > So for thirty years, they’ve been digging this hole, getting deeper and deeper, aided by cheap gas and an uninterested Government. But all along, as their debt continued to climb, their sale continued to sink, and their labor commitments continued to grow - the signs were clear. _This will end badly._ > > Well, we’ve reached the end of the line. > > While I for one do NOT want to see the wreckage this causes on the American Economy as a whole, nor the long term damage it does to American Manufacturing, it’s bloody clear that we can’t continue to allow these same **complete fucking morons** to manage this business. They can’t do it. They don’t know how. > > If this was China, or Soviet Russia, these guys would be publicly executed for their crimes against the American People. Not saying that we should do that, just thinking that we, and they, need to recognize how badly they’ve performed and just how big of a mess they’ve left the rest of us to clean up. The fact is the japanese are not geniuses-they set out to build good, reliable cars, and did so. what did detroit do? The ignored the small car market, and tries to fob off disasters like the CAVALIER and the NEON. Both models were simply not as good as what the Japanese were making. Wht is so hard about realizing that Americans wanted economical cars? Funny-GM ALMOST got it right (SATURN)-but they never followed up on their initial success, and allowed the line to sink into mediocrity. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/75 "2008-11-24T14:06:27Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The fact is the japanese are not geniuses-they set out to build good, reliable cars, and did so. what did detroit do? The ignored the small car market, and tries to fob off disasters like the CAVALIER and the NEON. Both models were simply not as good as what the Japanese were making. Wht is so hard about realizing that Americans wanted economical cars? Funny-GM ALMOST got it right (SATURN)-but they never followed up on their initial success, and allowed the line to sink into mediocrity. The Neon was pretty good, actually. It was the first American-market small car to do well overseas- actually, now that I think about it, the only one. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/76 "2008-11-24T14:17:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Dismissing the GAO, Reuters and The Monitor in one citeless sweep is beneath contempt. My cite is THE VERY ARTICLE YOU LINKED TO. I’m using their own words, and I’ll ask you again; why does it strike you as being outrageous that most companies would, over the course of seven years, have at least one year in which they didn’t run a profit? Do you think companies that lose money should pay income taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Nothar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nothar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nothar)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/77 "2008-11-24T14:25:59Z")
> [@](#): > > My cite is THE VERY ARTICLE YOU LINKED TO. I’m using their own words, and I’ll ask you again; why does it strike you as being outrageous that most companies would, over the course of seven years, have at least one year in which they didn’t run a profit? > > Do you think companies that lose money should pay income taxes? As a tax accountant at a high end CPA firm, I can tell you that this is right on the money. The big corporations do pay a ton of income taxes when they have a good year, but every now and then they will have an off year (see most companies for 2008) and pay little to no taxes. I do not understand how people do not grasp this. It would be as if someone said “I can’t believe those Big 3 automakers are asking for a Gov’t bailout. I heard that none of them were even going to pay any income taxes this year!” Yeah no shit Sherlock. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/78 "2008-11-24T19:08:21Z")
Citi group is after 326 billion. That is due to a problem they helped cause and participated in. Yet 25 for the big 3 is a waste. Much of the big 3 problems were caused by people like Citigroup. This makes zero sense. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/79 "2008-11-24T19:31:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Citi group is after 326 billion. That is due to a problem they helped cause and participated in. Yet 25 for the big 3 is a waste. Much of the big 3 problems were caused by people like Citigroup. > This makes zero sense. No it makes plenty of sense. The big three have been fucking up for 40 years now, and if they haven’t figured out how to make any fucking money in that business then they are screwed. This is the first time the banks have ever asked for it. Now I believe that any cash given (be it Citigroup or GM or whoever) ought to be traded for voting shares. Only GM’s market cap is 2 billion anyway. You want to know why people don’t want to help the big three **gonzomax**? It’s because we’re sick of their fucking bullshit “poor little ole’ me” games. They consistently ignored the market and have been out of touch with reality while pushing the meme that you’re unAmerican if you don’t drive one of their shitty cars. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on. And to highlight their inability to be in touch with reality, the fucking fly in on three SEPARATE private jets to hold out their tin cups to ask for money without a fucking plan. They’ve been playing this game for forty fucking years now and I’m fucking sick of it. They continue to focus on extreme marketing and faddish styling while forgetting about quality and reliability. They had a winner with an electric car but they killed it because the parts never broke. Do we really need to fucking list all the ways they have been fucking us over all these years? That’s why I want to see them go down. I don’t give a fuck how. They are a cancer on our economy and the sooner they go the better. America doesn’t have a manufacturing base for a reason, because it is no longer the economic winner it once was. Propping up GM and Ford and Chrysler isn’t going to ever change that. What we need is a clean fucking break from these assholes and all they represent. I’d gladly support the government spending 200 billion in upstart industries before I’d see them give 25 to GM and Co. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/80 "2008-11-24T22:24:50Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I do not think that letting the big 3 fail at this time,when we can likely save them, would be good for the country. This is a bad economic time. Letting them fail will make it much worse. For me it is that simple. A lot of suppliers and small businesses will suffer. The paying of hundreds of thousands of unemployment benefits would be rough. More bankruptcies and foreclosures would add to an already serious problem. I do not think it would be wise. The old broken window fallacy, exposed by Bastiat some centuries ago. So, your reasoning is that since these are bad times “other” people and companies need to give money to the big three? That just creates a spiraling meltdown. Companies and people who were barely getting by will now be forced into bankruptcy. Will you bail them out too? Subsidizing incompetent industry was a huge burden in European economies un the 70s and they finally realized it was no good because you just ended having more and more industries in need of subsidies. It would be foolish for America to go down that way. So what id the big three go under? People who need cars will still buy cars from other manufacturers in America and abroad. Some companies will suffer and some wil benefit. On the whole the economy will be better of of the inefficient die off and the efficient progress. By maintaining the job of inefficient workers you are hurting efficient workers. There is no way around this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913.md?page=5)