# The big three Automakers throw themselvels under the bus. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913 "2008-11-21T21:26:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/101 "2008-11-26T00:50:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not an important point at all. The airplanes are a small amount to zero in on. I understand it looks bad ,but it is not a real problem.The whole discussion is just a diversion. > I want the financial companies to show a plan next time they come in. I want to see them treated the same way. These guys filtered billions out of the system. I want them to give some back. Preach it, brother! ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/102 "2008-11-26T01:13:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not an important point at all. The airplanes are a small amount to zero in on. I understand it looks bad ,but it is not a real problem.The whole discussion is just a diversion. > I want the financial companies to show a plan next time they come in. I want to see them treated the same way. These guys filtered billions out of the system. I want them to give some back. No. It looks incredibly bad with executives making millions with blinders on. This PR disaster is exactly what they deserved. The financial companies including the company who is holding my mortgage can suck my dick as well. For the first time I actually feel sorry for Obama. He got stuck with a huge steaming pile. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/103 "2008-11-26T01:57:18Z")
[http://www.drudgereport.com/flashrur.htm](http://www.drudgereport.com/flashrur.htm) Heres a Russian economist who predicted this mess a long time ago. He says that we will not salvage this mess and the US will break up into 6 separate countries. There are more and more experts who say we are through.This mess will take us down. I hope they are wrong but Paulson has accomplished nothing. There is a logic mis step in the plan. He says we will get the banks to load by giving them a pot of money. But they know the conditions for lending are bad. If they start lending they will have to be giving out risky loans. They do not want to do that. They are smart enough to know better. So they will not thaw the loans. They are just hanging on to the money until the economy improves and they are more sure of getting repaid. That is one reason it is failing. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/104 "2008-11-26T03:42:07Z")
Citigroup has explained as they take our money .that they will not back off their 400 ,000 dollar backing of the N,Y, Mets stadium. They think their name on the stadium is worth it. The mpney is free after all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/105 "2008-11-26T04:08:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.drudgereport.com/flashrur.htm](http://www.drudgereport.com/flashrur.htm) Heres a Russian economist who predicted this mess a long time ago. He says that we will not salvage this mess and the US will break up into 6 separate countries. So we weathered a civil war, but we’re going to be torn to pieces by a downturn in the stock market. Makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/106 "2008-11-26T17:36:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So we weathered a civil war, but we’re going to be torn to pieces by a downturn in the stock market. > > Makes sense. Sadly it does. This mess is not getting better. It is not a market downturn. It is far more dangerous than that. The banks and financial companies have corrupted the entire system. So far we have not been able to fix the problems. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/107 "2008-11-26T18:20:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Sadly it does. This mess is not getting better. It is not a market downturn. It is far more dangerous than that. The banks and financial companies have corrupted the entire system. So far we have not been able to fix the problems. It’s not more dangerous than that. It’s a market adjustment, which happens to be worse than normal because of some people messing with things like derivatives which they didn’t fully understand (or bother to look into properly). You’re buying into the media scare way too much. Try reading this week’s [TMQ](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/081125). You might feel a bit better… > [@](#): > > **Oh No! Gasoline Prices Are Falling!** > > Just last winter, gas at $4 a gallon was said to represent a super-ultra emergency, and ExxonMobil profits were said to be obscene. Now gas is $2 a gallon and this is bad, according to CNBC economics bobbleheads, who last week warned the lower pump price will depress oil-company profits. Just last winter, rising consumer prices were said to represent a super-ultra emergency – now that consumer prices are falling, that’s supposed to be bad too, owing to the possibility of deflation. But innovation and rising labor productivity are supposed to drive down prices. Lower prices are a core goal of capitalist economics! > > Oh no, the price is falling! Oh no! These points should serve as reminders that the mainstream media always present all economic news as bad. Higher interest rates? Bad for borrowers. Lower interest rates? Might cause inflation. Normally, the media’s penchant for spinning all economic news as bad doesn’t matter – but right now it does, as pessimism more than logic seems to be driving the weak economy. Speaking as someone who pulled the election lever for Barack Obama (and whose daughter worked for the Obama campaign round the clock for months), I agree with John McCain’s statement, “The fundamentals of the economy are strong.” They are. McCain was right! Innovation is high. Labor productivity is high. There are no shortages of any resource or commodity. Pessimism is driving the downturn, and that pessimism is advanced by relentless media negativism. > > Even the Wall Street Journal is spinning events in the most pessimistic light. A page one story declared, “Investors in the U.S. stock market have lost more than $9 trillion since its peak a year ago.” But there is a distinction between a decline and a loss. The paper value of U.S. equities has declined $9 trillion since the peak in October 2007, but many investors have suffered no loss because they haven’t sold. Many people’s houses have declined in value in the last two years, but most people haven’t lost a dime because they haven’t sold – just as many people’s houses rose in value from 2002 to 2006 but most people did not gain, again because they did not sell. Doing nothing can be the smart move in a bear market, and those investors, individual or institutional, who have cleverly done nothing have incurred no losses and are likely to come out ahead in the long run. Yet some insist on claiming $9 trillion has been “lost.” Exaggerating the negative only worsens the economic-confidence picture. **Mods** : the above is an excerpt, not a whole article. Will it get worse before it gets better? Sure, no question of that. Is it the end of the world, or even of economics as we know it? Not a chance. As someone who lived through the 70s oil crisis, you’ve seen the economy in much worse state than it will get in your lifetime. Stop worrying. Unemployment is at 6.5% as of last week. Full employment (ie., the most people who can possibly be employed at any given time, considering “structural” unemployment- injuries, restructuring, relocation and so on) is somewhere between 4 and 6.4%, according to the OECD. The sky is not falling, and the only way it will is if you buy in to all the prophets of doom who are telling you it is. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/108 "2008-11-26T18:42:41Z")
I want to live in your world. Unemployment which is always understated is near 10 %. Some pockets are much higher. The difference this time is they have tried to right the ship with extreme measures. It just gets worse. This is not like the 70s. I am not sure there is a media scare. Most just report the policies like they are very good and sure ideas. You have to dig a lot deeper to find some contradiction. But when mainstream financial media have expert after expert say they are worried, I begin to wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/109 "2008-11-26T18:55:18Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I want to live in your world. Unemployment which is always understated is near 10 %. Some pockets are much higher. > The difference this time is they have tried to right the ship with extreme measures. It just gets worse. This is not like the 70s. > > I am not sure there is a media scare. Most just report the policies like they are very good and sure ideas. You have to dig a lot deeper to find some contradiction. But when mainstream financial media have expert after expert say they are worried, I begin to wonder. In my world, (un)employment numbers come from the [Bureau of Labor Statistics](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf). Where did yours come from? The people running AIG were supposedly financial experts, too. Nobody\* saw this collapse coming, so I don’t know why you’d put any stock in their doom-and-gloom predictions now. \*I’m aware that several experts predicted this collapse, but most of those that did have been predicting collapses pretty much every year for the last ten-plus years. They were bound to get it right eventually. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/110 "2008-11-26T19:37:28Z")
[Big Bailouts, Bigger Bucks - The Big Picture](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/big-bailouts-bigger-bucks/) How big is it, The bailout is enormous. A lot of people saw it coming. They were just ignored because profits were so huge, ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/111 "2008-11-27T01:32:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Sadly it does. This mess is not getting better. It is not a market downturn. It is far more dangerous than that. The banks and financial companies have corrupted the entire system. So far we have not been able to fix the problems. Perhaps a few banker executions to inspire Wall Street? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/112 "2008-11-27T03:13:23Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > … the company who is holding my mortgage can suck my dick as well. You’re upset with them for loaning you money? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/113 "2008-11-27T03:14:26Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Perhaps a few banker executions to inspire Wall Street? Pour encourager les autres? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/114 "2008-11-27T11:12:35Z")
[Toyota has its credit rating cut.](http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200811261410DOWJONESDJONLINE000823_FORTUNE5.htm) > [@](#): > > The downgrade by Fitch Ratings of Toyota Motor Corp.'s ™ sterling credit rating delivered new evidence that even the strongest companies aren’t safe from troubles roiling the world’s economy and auto industry. > > While Toyota’s Detroit-based rivals scramble to avoid bankruptcy and plead for a bailout from the U.S. government, the Japanese auto maker is grappling with its own mounting problems. > > Toyota earlier this month reported a 69% drop in fiscal second-quarter profit and cut its full-year forecast by more than half. Toyota recently announced production cuts in the U.S in response to a steep decline in sales in its largest and most profitable market. The company’s shares are down about 45% from their high for the year. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/115 "2008-11-27T15:19:55Z")
How can Toyota be having trouble? They are not run by the incompetent Americans. The financial mess our wealthy bankers gave us, will impact everybody. Companies are experiencing trouble getting the loans that have been part of the economic base for decades. Now banks ,who got billions so they would loan, are not lending. How many billions do we have to give the banks before they actually decide to help end the crisis? The banks are making a good case for nationalizing a few banks and putting the bailout cash there to actually get the job done. Also to take back the money we gave them. ---
**Author:** ![zenith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/116 "2008-11-27T16:52:58Z")
The bailout money should have been targeted at the troubled mortgage holder, not at the banks and brokers. Government referees should have provided the banks just enough money to cover the cost of recasting individual home loans to fixed-interest loans fitting the time-tested “25/38” rule to the now-deflated home value and a REALISTIC interpretation of current income. For example, Joe Overdrawn was granted a loan in 2003 that , at the 4% teaser rate, barely fit within the guidelines of no more than 25% of gross to mortgage PITI\* and 38% of gross going to ALL indebtedness, and this only after overzealous loan officer decided to include iffy income, like overtime, as regular income. Joe is now , say 32/52, since OT has dried up and his interest rate has doubled. The government could come in and pay down enough of Joe’s old mortgage as necessary to get Joe back to under 25/38 based on just Joe’s base pay–no holidays, OT, etc.-- and a fixed rate of 9% on a new 40-year loan. Recapture clauses should force Joe to pay capital gains tax on every dollar of profit( vice the usual $250K capital gains exception for private homes) he might make in a future up-turned real estate market. Additionally, the government might deny interest and/or property tax deductions relative to the bailed-out properties. If a government investigation of the lender’s loan practices reveals a lot of “pencil whipping” of figures to make customers appear to fit within 25/38 when they, in fact, did not, then the government should fine these institutions 100% of the bailout money received AND put executives in jail. Under this plan, everyone sacrifices something. The lender doesn’t get to keep Joe on an escalator to an 18% eventual interest rate and may be held liable for lies and omissions made by employees. And Joe gives up tax goodies. - Principal, Interest, Taxes, Insurance related to the home. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/117 "2008-11-27T17:30:22Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > The bailout money should have been targeted at the troubled mortgage holder, not at the banks and brokers. Except that – according to my perhaps ill-informed understanding – the foreclosures are only the proximate cause; the actual issues are much more expansive and go far, far deeper. Not that I don’t appreciate the jist of what you’re saying, but just that it’s a band-aid in place of a defibrillator. Not to mention that your proposal wouldn’t have, nor does it now, address the automakers’ situation (which _is_ the thread topic, after all). ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/118 "2008-11-27T21:23:37Z")
Well, guess what GM just did? So they were aware of how bad it looked when they decided to all three fly to Washington in private jets. Good for them. What did they decide to do about it? They asked the FAA to not allow the public to access that information so [they won’t get caught next time](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afrKemH3i.2Y&refer=home)! These guys are dumb as shit. I trust people this stupid to run an ice cream parlor much less the biggest corporation in the US. I’m sorry **gonzomax** , I realize it doesn’t seem fair, but I’m of the opinion that these guys are nothing but greedy cancers on our society and we’ve been feeding them for years. You can say that the big fat bankers are the bad guys, but the responsibility of the whole sub-prime mess lies at many people’s feet. The big three own their problems and have nobody else to blame. Their shitty management is the direct cause of their problems, and it’s been clear to everyone who had a brain that they were screwed. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/119 "2008-11-27T22:26:00Z")
I believe letting the Big 3 die would really hurt the country when it is in a vulnerable condition. It would be a serious blow to the economy and employment. It is a terrible time for this to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913/120 "2008-11-28T00:33:55Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I believe letting the Big 3 die would really hurt the country when it is in a vulnerable condition. It would be a serious blow to the economy and employment. It is a terrible time for this to happen. Yes. However, that alone does not make the bailout they’re asking for a good idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-big-three-automakers-throw-themselvels-under-the-bus/473913.md?page=7)