The biggest shock: Pro-Bush gays

That’s it right there. For a large number of people, there are hot-button issues that over-ride all others. Using myself as an example: gun control. That is my hot-button. I would never vote for or support a candidate that was in favor of increased gun control, no matter what his other positions were. Period. Other people are like this on abortion, military spending, veganism, pet rights, speed limits, whatever. I would guess that for a large percentage of the gays that voted Bush, there was some over-riding issue at work. Find that issue, fix it, and they vote Kerry.

Hope this helps. (If I am right, of course. If I am wrong, please disregard entirely!) :smiley:

Um, no it wasn’t. Obviously it wasn’t. Dimwits and dumbasses, like for example Mort Kondracke on FOX, decided to call it a slam, as if calling a lesbian a lesbian is an insult. Anyone who didn’t know that MDM is a lesbian prior to John Kerry’s mentioning it in the debate is a woefully uninformed moron. It was brought up in 2000. It was brought up repeatedly between 2000 and the debate. It had been brought up a week earlier in the VP debate. News of MDM’s lesbianism was not some revelation.

Oh yeah, Mort Kondracke and FOX news, two completely unbiased sources. Tell me, did Mort or anyone else at FOX launch themselves out of a seated position when Alan Keyes called Mary a selfish hedonist? No? Huh.

What a load of horseshit. Right, Kerry’s going to attack Cheney for having a gay daughter in the hopes of peeling off evangelical voters? That makes absolutely no sense. It is such a tortured, twisted attempt at spin that the idea that people actually bought into it is just more evidence of the general stupidity of the American electorate.

Only because Cheney has been known to bite the heads off things in his day. Dolls, chickens, the occassional Halliburton employee…

First, it is not possible to contract privately for all of the rights and responsibilities that go along with marriage. A couple may not privately contract immigration rights, for example, or unlimited inheritance exemptions. In my state a surviving spouse gets breaks on such things as property valuation which are unavailable no non-married couples and cannot be contracted. And any will or legal document is only as good as the lawyer drafting it and the judge deciding about it. There are any number of cases of surviving blood relatives swooping in after the death of one partner and dispossessing the surviving partner.

And to be cold-bloodedly practical about it, why should a same-sex couple be forced to spend thousands of dollars to try to secure a fraction of the rights that two drunken strangers of opposite sexes can secure by stumbling into a Vegas wedding chapel and plunking down $50?

Roseworm: Forgive me for not quoting that magnum opus above. But do this – go over to Great Debates, and post as coherent a statement of those “traditional values” as you can write, demonstrating how they translate to the stances on controversial issues that their supporters clearly have taken.

I hold by “traditional values” – my marriage is extremely meaningful to me, and I don’t relish the idea of its being demeaned by those to whom marriage is not a meaningful institution. And IMO the same meaningfulness exists in the minds and hearts of those who wish to marry and are being forbidden to do so by the action of recent laws.

Likewise, I’ve been outspoken for Christian values – not those advanced by the Religious Right, but those taught by Jesus Christ. That makes me a liberal and unorthodox by their standards – but the application of His principles is where I’m coming from. I’m not particularly interested in the praise of people – just in doing what He commanded.

And I decry the divisiveness that has characterized America lately. I could do a short biography on who I am – but I don’t fall into anybody’s particular stereotype categories. And I suspect that’s true for a lot of people.

What is nature’s purpose for those who are disabled? What is nature’s purpose for infertile individuals? What is nature’s purpose of red hair and green eyes?

Slavery was an ancient institution. Should we keep it as well? “Because that’s the way it’s always been,” is NEVER a good argument in favor of something.

I don’t understand your example of two brothers living together. What if it were a brother and sister? (Think Matthew and Marilla Cuthbert in Anne of Green Gables). They can’t get married either. (Unless you’re reading V. C. Andrews)

Roseworm: Thank you for understanding where we were coming from that people are just people, across the board, no matter orientation, race or religion. I still disagree about what the purpose of a marriage contract should be, but I’ll leave that fight to others who can state the position much more eloquently than I.

If that were true, it would not be the case that in all but three of the states that passed their referenda, any form of domestic partnership or civil unions was banned; or that in Ohio, any contract mimicking marriage was banned.

That’s a pretty powerful message to the effect that our relationships are inferior to your own.

Could I have a cite for this, please?

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. WRONG!

I fucking hate the “historical” argument. Go fucking learn some history first! Yes, children were a focus of marriage. But marriage was always primarily, as it is now, about PROPERTY. For fuck’s sake. Property laws in a SECULAR environment too, generally.

The OP links to the story.

To LaurAnge:

Your point about property is a good one. In fact, I would be willing to bet that 90% of marriage law concerns property.

But it is children who inherit the property. Without inheritors, the property agreements are virtually moot.

My folks are going to sell their property and move into a smaller place so they can retire and afford to live and travel. I won’t inherit jack (nor did I ever expect to), and that’s true of quite a lot of Americans these days. Seems like property laws must be “moot” for a lot of the breeders too.

I’ll echo, at least in sentiment, what Loopydude said. My family has all but disowned me and therefore has written me out of their will, leaving me to inherit absolutely nada. Of course, I also didn’t want any of their money anyway (and as an only child, perhaps they’ll take it with them), but the whole argument for seems pointless. As others have already stated…

*If it’s for ‘tradition,’ hasn’t that never been a good reason to maintain something? Because “we’ve always done it that way.” Hrmph. Or else we’d never have any social progress, new inventions or expansionism in any form.

*If it’s due to ‘nature,’ I’m pretty positive that theory has already been thoroughly shot down -and- debunked. If homosexuality is present out in the wild, among animals and the like, how much more so can you get? Wouldn’t that also fall under being “God ordained,” if S/He in fact created everything?

*If it’s due to ‘procreation,’ I suppose one could take the opposing views about over-population. If not, then there are infertility scenarios, those who never wed, folks having children outside of marriage, death of a partner, I dunno. About a bazillion reasons why this isn’t legitimate. So, you tell me.

*If it’s due to ‘inheritance,’ that can be claimed also in many, many different ways and forms legally. I don’t see why SSM would threaten heterosexuals by partaking in the same terminology to be granted the same privileges, rights and concessions. As has been repeatedly discussed, it appears to be ludicrous to come up with the exact duplicate provisions and mandates to cover the SAME thing. Too much taxpayer money needlessly spent and time wasted that could be put toward other things that actually NEED it. Also, if it ultimately is seen the same, described as such and will end up there anyway, why not just dispense with all the red tape (that our government/country is known for and most people hate/would like abolished or made easier) and cut right to the chase/conclusion? Wouldn’t that be prudent and reasonable?

*If it’s due to ‘religion,’ which one? If you (generally speaking) mean Christianity, will that be the Old Testament or the New? If it’s not, who’s takes precedence? If you mean over all, how do we decide which tenants to adhere to?

I mean, wouldn’t it just be simpler to grant equal rights status on all humans and then work out the details from there? How many problems can being fair honestly cause?

I really think my brain is going to explode. Soon.

::: SIGHS again and prays desperately for peace :::

I’m sorry to hear about your falling out with your parents, faithfool. That is truly sad.

To clarify my own situation, when I said I never expected anything, that’s not because of any problem I have with my parents, or them with me. It’s just that we were not wealthy while I was growing up (though I wouldn’t say we were poor either), my parents took out mondo-big loans to get me through undergrad (so did I, for that matter), and so I figure I’ve gotten more than what I was entitled to. I feel in their debt rather often, actually, and wouldn’t ask them for a cent if I could make it on my own. As they don’t have pensions and their 401k savings got decimated, their property is really what they have to make ends meet in retirement and have a little to play with. I wouldn’t begrudge them any of it.

Now somebody please tell me why a gay couple couldn’t do the exact same thing with a child they have raised by whatever means they came to fortunate enough to have one? Can a single traditionalist demonstrate to me why there is anything of practical substance to these “it’s just bin’ dun’ that-a-way” arguments, or are you gonna fess up and tell us what you realy think: God hates fags.

[hijack]

Thank you for your kind words. In my situation though, many a therapist had been telling me for years that it was wise to ‘divorce’ myself from them (well, actually just my mother, but I digress), but I just couldn’t bring myself to do it and the strain of always trying to keep her at arm’s length, inside the boundaries, was killing me with more stress than usual.

So, within the last year she gave me the perfect out, and it finally being the proverbial straw that broke this camel’s back, I took it and ran. Fortunately, it’s been the best thing I’ve ever done and she (who we’ve always called a cross between Sybil and Hitler, thus Shitler or Sybler, whichever is preferable) has now turned into friggin’ Pollyanna.

But I’m WAY over here and it’s wonderful. I’m finally in control of my life, good or bad, without any of her manipulative bullshit, etc., etc., etc.

[thus endeth my hijack – sorry]

No, it is the OTHER SPOUSE who automatically inherits property tax-free. That’s what we want. It’s also the OTHER SPOUSE who is automatic next of kin, capable of making legal and medical decisions for the first spouse, and in a legally protected relationship that prevents self-incrimination. That’s what we want. In terms of the legal framework for marriage, children are a secondary matter – they are not automatic inheritors nor are they automatic next of kin.

But still here, although more occasionally than in the past. Weirddave mentioned this thread, and I will cross-post here what I posted in my LJ on Wednesday. You may (read: probably) will want to skip down to point no. 3, the most relevant to this thread:

My surprising vote

I voted for the little bastard.

And I’m not particularly happy that he won.

And I know that my choice will cause much shock and horror among my friends. ETA: And, indeed, it has, albeit not quite as badly as I might’ve thought.

I actually wasn’t sure who I’d vote for until I was in line in front of the booth. My heart of hearts is a Democrat, but I forced myself into an exceedingly unpleasant decision and voted with my head. And my head said:

  1. Kerry doesn’t get the war we’re fighting. Bush isn’t doing a very good job of leading it - yes, I know, that’s a bit of an understatement - but I believe we must fight this war aggressively, and that means we must fight it largely alone. I would prefer a leader who better prepared the country for the inevitable, catastrophic mistakes that have typified every war ever fought. But the fact that those errors are inevitable doesn’t mean that you don’t fight the war in the first place.

A corollary of this point: by virtue of our position as the richest, most powerful nation that has ever existed, we will be hated and opposed regardless of the justice or injustice of what we do - because the only power that many in the world can exercise against us reflexive opposition. Thus, the fact of opposition means very little, but Kerry and so many of his supporters seem to think that we should only conduct war in the easy cases - the equivalents of Pearl Harbor or Kuwait.

Technological change means we no longer have that luxury. To protect our people, we will have to invade countries that harbor jihadists and other terrorists, and we will have to act as a neocolonial power. That is our doom. It is not pretty, and it may destroy us eventually. But failure to accept this doom will simply bring about our destruction even sooner.

  1. Kerry’s economic views are even more disastrous than Bush’s. Both candidates are highly dishonest about the economic predicament in which we find ourselves. But Kerry seems to lack any understanding at all that there are profound limits on the extent to which any nation can tax the productive to benefit the unproductive. Whatever we tax we will have less of – and to increase taxes on labor and investment will result in less of both. The core unfairness is that those who are highly productive can always decide to be less productive, without much damaging their own lifestyles. Deficit reduction thus can’t rely on raising taxes - because raising taxes pretty quickly reduces economic growth, and the overall size of the economic pie. Now, those who look to the Bush I tax increase as the savior of the 90s I think are missing a key point: in the absence of the rapid technological change of that period, which appears likely to have happened and fed on itself regardless of federal fiscal policy, it’s unlikely to have worked. In many respects, Rubinomics/Clintonomics was simply the beneficiary of an exceedingly well-timed, utterly exogenous bubble - and we can’t count on having those conditions again.

The only real prayer of dealing with the deficit is a sharp reduction in domestic spending. Kerry’s main supporters won’t allow this at all. Bush’s won’t like it either, but at least part of his coalition actually is willing to consider it. I’m not holding my breath - it’s a choice between the irresponsible and the pernicious.

Now as for the middle- and longer-term, we must confront entitlement spending. Kerry offered no solution at all: keep everything the way that it is, and punt the issue to a “blue ribbon panel” once the looming crisis gets to be too bad. That is almost a parody of ducking the issue. Bush at least is talking about making social security self-funding. This, obviously, is not a complete solution either because of the exhorbitant transition costs - but it’s at least admitting that there’s a problem.

  1. For the previous four elections, I voted Democratic mainly for this reason: the fear that the Court, in conservative hands, would eviscerate individual rights. It’s still hugely important to me, but I’m also reminding myself that it matters somewhat less than meets the eye.

First of all, our Founders have helped ensure that the President will not simply be able to elevate Scalia or a Scalia clone to the Chief Justice position without a huge fight–and one that quite frankly he may lose. It only takes 41 votes to maintain a filibuster, and I expect that the Democrats will be in no mood to compromise on this point (especially since they can probably rely on at least 3-4 Republicans to make up for the few Democrats, such as Nelson, Landrieu and Lincoln, who might peel off).

Second of all, even if the President can manage to point four Scalias, I don’t think there are any serious prospects for reversing the most important recent privacy decision: Lawrence. There won’t be a way to bring it up procedurally without great reaching, and that alone would provoke a grave crisis that the Court usually seeks to avoid. Roe may be in greater danger - but even then, what probably will happen is a federal approach to abortion that preserves abortion rights in many states. Not ideal, but the genius of our federal system is that it does let most views get half a loaf.

And that brings us to the third point. Liberals’ reliance on the judiciary as savior has probably always been in error. I wrote on this at the time Shrub announced his backing for the FMA (ETA:this was a link to a prior post, meditating on the disastrous ignorance behind our pursuit of marriage litigation), and I’m sad to say that it looks like I’ve been vindicated - 10 or 11 losses yesterday show that we must do the hard work first, before running to the judiciary. In many respects, we’re actually making huge progress in changing social attitudes, even though it doesn’t feel like it - but we have to have some patience before we’ll see concrete, helpful results. I’m thinking that we win within a generation, maybe half a generation. And that is itself stupendous. In the meantime, we’ll have to grit our teeth and be happy with half-measures such as California’s.

You went over the line, spectrum. No matter your outrage, wishing or anticipating death of another poster is plainly unacceptable. You are warned not to do this again.

TVeblen
Pit mod

To OxyMoron:

Wow, that was a great post. Your analysis of the War on Terror (an ugly job we cannot and dare not avoid) was positively brilliant. Your other points were very good, too.

I was talking about Oxy before, but I figure you knew that.

Just in case you’re curious, Rosewood, to kind of put a face on this issue for you; OxyMoron is a gay man in a committed, monogamous relationship with another gay man, they are one of the strongest, healthiest, best couples I know. My wife and I both think that were we to suddenly shuffle off this mortal coil they would be one of our top choices to raise our child(ren) because we know they would do it right, yet because of “tradition” and laws and society’s intrusive concern over something that is really none of it’s business and “moral” issues from people who don’t even know them, they can’t get married. You have just admired his post, which is at least the start of possibly admiring him as a poster and perhaps one day meeting him and forming a friendship (or not, but it’s possible). According to your posts in this thread, you don’t think that he deserves all of the same rights that you have. How do you justify that? Not in the abstract, not in general, but right here, right now, please explain to OxyMoron why he shouldn’t be allowed to marry the person he loves.