# The "Bird Man of Alcatraz"-What Was He Really Like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330 "2009-07-26T17:01:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/1 "2009-07-26T17:01:13Z")
I caught the old movie on Turner Classics yeaterday. It was a well-acted flick, and Burt Lancaster did a good job. Knowing how Hollywood fictionalizes stuff, I had a few questions: -this guy (the “Birdman”) was doing life for a duble murder-why did they transfer him from Leavenworth (Kansas) all the way to Alcatraz? Seems like a big expense, for a man already past middle age. -the Birdman’s mother seemed like a strange woman-she devoted her life to freeing her sun, but disowned him when he married-was this true? -the guy supposedly had several papers published in respected orthinological journals-was this exaggerated? Unfortunately, I missed te last 15 minutes-did he die in prison? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/2 "2009-07-26T17:57:03Z")
> [@](#): > > this guy (the “Birdman”) was doing life for a duble murder-why did they transfer him from Leavenworth (Kansas) all the way to Alcatraz? Seems like a big expense, for a man already past middle age. Alcatraz was generally a prison for prisoners who made trouble in other institutions. I don’t know the exact nature of what he did to get thrown out of Leavenworth, but my point is that that was Alcatraz’s main purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/3 "2009-07-26T18:14:58Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I don’t know the exact nature of what he did to get thrown out of Leavenworth, but my point is that that was Alcatraz’s main purpose. Wikipedia says the transfer was initiated [because his canary breeding business was too disruptive and went through after his still was discovered.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdman_Of_Alcatraz) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/4 "2009-07-26T18:15:41Z")
He was a nasty and dangerous murderer. [Cite](http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/stroud/6.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/5 "2009-07-26T18:18:24Z")
You could also start with the Wikipedia entry on Stroud: > **[Robert Stroud](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Franklin_Stroud)** > > Robert Franklin Stroud (January 28, 1890 – November 21, 1963), known as the "Birdman of Alcatraz", was a convicted murderer, American federal prisoner and author who has been cited as one of the most notorious criminals in the United States. During his time at Leavenworth Penitentiary, he reared and sold birds and became a respected ornithologist. From 1942 to 1959, he was incarcerated at Alcatraz, where regulations did not allow him to keep birds. Stroud was never released from the fede Born i... ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/6 "2009-07-26T19:23:38Z")
When I visited Alcatraz, the information on Stroud that he was a dangerous psychotic (BTW, he did not keep birds at Alcatraz; that was in Leavenworth). He may have loved birds, but he didn’t get along with people and had to spend most of his time there segregated from the other prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/7 "2009-07-26T19:33:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > -the guy supposedly had several papers published in respected orthinological journals-was this exaggerated? Apparently [_Stroud’s Digest on the Diseases of Birds_](http://www.amazon.com/Strouds-Digest-Diseases-Robert-Stroud/dp/0866227318) is still easily available; and if the reviews on the Amazon page are to be believed, it continues to be valuable in the advice it provides. Indeed, a veterinarian reviewing the book says, “It is still considered a standard work of the diagnosis and treatment of Avian diseases.” ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/8 "2009-07-26T20:59:46Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > When I visited Alcatraz, the information on Stroud that he was a dangerous psychotic (BTW, he did not keep birds at Alcatraz; that was in Leavenworth). I was born in Leavenworth (uh, the town, not the prison) and people always seemed a bit miffed that Alcatraz got all the glory for his work when he never had one single bird there. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > He may have loved birds, but he didn’t get along with people and had to spend most of his time there segregated from the other prisoners. I love the Burt Lancaster movie because, hey, who doesn’t love Burt Lancaster, and it’s got Thelma Ritter, Karl Malden and Neville Brand as bonuses, but the real story of Robert Stroud is far more fascinating. Except for the problem of trying to find an actor to fill Burt Lancaster’s shoes, that would be a prime story to film (not “remake”). If only all psychopaths and sociopaths could find a constructive hobby to channel their energies into. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/9 "2009-07-26T21:56:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > He was a nasty and dangerous murderer. [Cite](http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/stroud/6.html). The page you linked doesn’t say he was a nasty and dangerous murderer. Which is odd, because he was a murderer, which should be easy to cite, and dangerous pretty much is implied with murderer. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/10 "2009-07-26T21:57:15Z")
I think that until the movie came out, Stroud was called “Birdman of Leavenworth.” Hollywood thought “Alcatraz” would be better, since it is better known. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/11 "2009-07-26T22:34:37Z")
Yeah, to be fair, Alcatraz sounds better too. There’s just something really interesting about the word itself,“Alcatraz” whereas “Leavenworth” is boring. The city is too, btw. Its only other claim to fame besides the stellar prison system is that Melissa Etheridge is from there. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/12 "2009-07-26T22:38:55Z")
> [@bup](#): > > The page you linked doesn’t say he was a nasty and dangerous murderer. Which is odd, because he was a murderer, which should be easy to cite, and dangerous pretty much is implied with murderer. In 1916, at Levenworth, he stabbed a guard to death, was sentenced to hang, and had his sentence commuted to life in prison. He had assaulted prison personnel and other inmates before. He was apparently an opiate addict and an alcoholic. While he wasn’t the worst guy out there (he _only_ killed two people in his life) he was not the most trustworthy guy and capable of turning on people quickly. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/13 "2009-07-27T01:05:23Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Yeah, to be fair, Alcatraz sounds better too. There’s just something really interesting about the word itself,“Alcatraz” whereas “Leavenworth” is boring. The city is too, btw. Its only other claim to fame besides the stellar prison system is that Melissa Etheridge is from there. And Alcatraz had a reputation as the toughest prison in the US. It works better dramatically and gets its point across immediately. I was in one of the cells in the area where Stroud was kept. It was nasty – no light except a small hole in the door (which could be shut). He was kept apart from the rest of the prison population because he was considered so dangerous. It wasn’t the number of people he killed – it was the chance that he’d start trying to kill someone over trivial disputes. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/14 "2009-07-27T01:16:28Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > And Alcatraz had a reputation as the toughest prison in the US. It works better dramatically and gets its point across That’s weird to me. In real life, Alcatraz was so tough they wouldn’t let Stroud keep birds, but the movie makes it seem like a very tolerable place that would cater to Stroud’s every bird-related whim. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > I was in one of the cells in the area where Stroud was kept. It was nasty – no light except a small hole in the door (which could be shut). He was kept apart from the rest of the prison population because he was considered so dangerous. It wasn’t the number of people he killed – it was the chance that he’d start trying to kill someone over trivial disputes. It was amazing to read that he spent 54 years in prison, and that 42 of those years were in segregation! He did have a dangerous temper, but damn! I don’t feel sorry for him, but perhaps he could have been helped in some way, but those were they days of lock 'em up and throw away the key, and no rehabilitation efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/15 "2009-07-27T02:41:00Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > It was amazing to read that he spent 54 years in prison, and that 42 of those years were in segregation! He did have a dangerous temper, but damn! I don’t feel sorry for him, but perhaps he could have been helped in some way, but those were they days of lock 'em up and throw away the key, and no rehabilitation efforts. In order to be rehabilitated, somebody would have had to brave the stench due to his lack of personal hygiene. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/16 "2009-07-27T02:50:52Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > When I visited Alcatraz, the information on Stroud that he was a dangerous psychotic (BTW, he did not keep birds at Alcatraz; that was in Leavenworth). He may have loved birds, but he didn’t get along with people and had to spend most of his time there segregated from the other prisoners. I can second that story. I distinctly remember the guide at the Alcatraz tour saying, “Forget about what you saw in the Burt Lancaster movie. Robert Stroud was _not a nice man_!”…TRM (who is always amused by the local DJ named Robert Stroud and his “roots of rock” show on the local classic rock station) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/17 "2009-07-27T02:59:11Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > That’s weird to me. In real life, Alcatraz was so tough they wouldn’t let Stroud keep birds, but the movie makes it seem like a very tolerable place that would cater to Stroud’s every bird-related whim. Even in Leavenworth, Stroud had to fight to get what he needed for his studies. > [@](#): > > It was amazing to read that he spent 54 years in prison, and that 42 of those years were in segregation! He did have a dangerous temper, but damn! I don’t feel sorry for him, but perhaps he could have been helped in some way, but those were they days of lock 'em up and throw away the key, and no rehabilitation efforts. If rehabilitation seemed a possibility, he wouldn’t have been sent to Alcatraz. It was designed to be the prison for those who couldn’t be kept in other prisons. You generally weren’t sentenced directly to Alcatraz, but were moved there if you were too violent or dangerous to be elsewhere. When Alcatraz was turned into a prison, the idea of rehabilitation was standard, but it was realized that there were some people who you just couldn’t rehabilitation. BTW, if you visit San Francisco, I highly recommend the tour of Alcatraz. It’s fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/18 "2009-07-27T03:11:59Z")
I’ve seen the movie many times, and it’s clear that Leavenworth is were he had his birds. He set up his bird business while at Leavenworth, forsing the Prison Bureau to allow them. After the Bureau of Prisons was established, it became the rule in federal peniteniaries that prisoners no longeer be allow pets. Many prisoners, not just Stroud, kept animals, and dealing with the care and fleas and lice that come with animals made it logical to ban them. Stroud and his mother set up a media storm, and the public ended up pressuring the government into allowing the “bird doctor” to keep his lab. When he was moved to Alcatraz, he was no longer allowed to have animals. What a brilliant, wasted life. StG ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/19 "2009-07-27T03:24:36Z")
My wife says he was also a notorious pedophile, after she did a little digging around on him for some such reason (she is into birds). Find your own cite, I ain’t putting that term in \*my \*Google-Fu! ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330/20 "2009-07-27T03:51:14Z")
**Gatopescado** - Well, he went into prison when he was 19, after his 36-year-old girlfriend was beaten and he killed the assailant. He died in prison. I think if he was a pedophile, he certainly never had an opportunity to engage in that practice. StG [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bird-man-of-alcatraz-what-was-he-really-like/504330.md?page=2)