# The bizarre pronunciation of certain English surnames **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2000, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594 "2000-02-19T09:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/41 "2017-06-04T06:37:21Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > And I suppose Dorchester is ‘dooster’? :dubious: No, “ch” is so much more distinctive a sound than a sibilant “c” that there’s that much less risk of elision. \ Now, if you were talking about [Slaithwaite](http://www.grannybuttons.com/granny_buttons/2004/06/slaithwaite_how.html) or [Shrewsbury](https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2015/06/27/shrowsbury-or-shroosbury-the-results-are-in/)… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/42 "2017-06-04T07:53:54Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > And I suppose Dorchester is ‘dooster’? :dubious: No, it’s pronounced “Casterbridge” (only kidding - that’s Thomas Hardy’s fictionalised name for it - although it has become sort of currency for the naming of guest houses, etc in that town) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/43 "2017-06-04T07:56:39Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I have never heard this, or heard of it. It’s “woo-ster-shur sauce,” just like the county. Could be a regional thing perhaps. I’m very accustomed to hearing people call it as I described above. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/44 "2017-06-04T08:06:20Z")
Ok, so Worcester is pronounced “Wooster”, Leicester is “Lester”, and Gloucester is “Gloster”. Why, then, are cities like Manchester pronounced phonetically? Shouldn’t it be called “Mooster”? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/45 "2017-06-04T08:56:24Z")
As\*\* Patrick London\*\* pointed out, there’s one very obvious difference between the first three, and the last one… ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/46 "2017-06-04T13:35:01Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Are you suggesting robby is incorrect about how almost everyone pronounces Worcester and Worcestershire? > > (allowing for some variation in his “-oo-” to include more of an “-uh-”) No, it’s just an old joke. I lived in MA for a couple of years and can even pronounce Peabody correctly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/47 "2017-06-04T13:54:08Z")
Well, all you non-Wooedhouse fans, how do you pronounce Psmith? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/48 "2017-06-04T13:57:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Hugh Laurie was amazingly an exact manifestation of how I had always imagined Bertie when reading the books. > > Stephen Fry was okay as Jeeves but not great. First, he looked way too young at the time. Second, he was supposed to be the straight man but he rarely delivered a straight line properly. He always signaled the joke with his facial expressions. Exactly plus one. In my 30th year of re-re-reading Wodehouse, Hugh Laurie’s portrayal is on the money. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/49 "2017-06-04T14:26:32Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I think you’ll get a different answer when you ask these two questions: > > Q1: How do you pronounce these words: Worcestershire Sauce? > > Q2: What’s in [this](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Lea_%26_Perrins_worcestershire_sauce_150ml.jpg/220px-Lea_%26_Perrins_worcestershire_sauce_150ml.jpg) bottle? > > I don’t know if that makes it a nickname, or not. I think the only thing that would definitively settle it would be an ad from the manufacturer saying it one way or the other, but unfortunately, I think they always refer to it by the brand only. It just sounds like a colloquial shortening to me. I’m sure we must have some example of this in American English, too, but I’m blanking. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/50 "2017-06-04T14:32:36Z")
On the bag of Walker’s crisps, it’s Worcester Sauce, indicating to me that it’s a nickname or alternate name for the full Worcestershire Sauce. That is, it’s not Worcestershire that is pronounced as Wooster in the sauce name, but rather that it is shortened to Worcester, thus the shortened pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/51 "2017-06-04T14:41:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > On the bag of Walker’s crisps, it’s Worcester Sauce, indicating to me that it’s a nickname or alternate name for the full Worcestershire Sauce. That is, it’s not Worcestershire that is pronounced as Wooster in the sauce name, but rather that it is shortened to Worcester, thus the shortened pronunciation. I think that might be because the crisps do not contain any actual Lea & Perrins product, so they’re using an alternate name for an ersatz flavouring. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/52 "2017-06-04T14:54:25Z")
> [@RobDog](#): > > I think that might be because the crisps do not contain any actual Lea & Perrins product, so they’re using an alternate name for an ersatz flavouring. Could be. In the US, any brand can use the name. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/53 "2017-06-04T14:55:53Z")
> [@RobDog](#): > > I think that might be because the crisps do not contain any actual Lea & Perrins product, so they’re using an alternate name for an ersatz flavouring. Also, [Oxford Dictionaries](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/worcester_sauce) has an entry for “Worcester sauce.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/54 "2017-06-04T15:16:10Z")
> [@RobDog](#): > > I think that might be because the crisps do not contain any actual Lea & Perrins product, so they’re using an alternate name for an ersatz flavouring. Further research suggests that Lea & Perrins did try to sue Holbrook’s back in the early 1900s over the use of the term of “Worcestershire Sauce,” but lost. However, they did get rights to the phrase “original and genuine.” So it sounds like anyone can use the name, but choose the more colloquial “Worcester,” since that’s what most people call it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/55 "2017-06-04T16:16:17Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Michael Horden and Richard Briers were THE Jeeves and Wooster. Stephen Fry was too young, and Ian Carmichael was too old. > > As a rule Americans tend to pronounce words exactly as they are spelt. Which won’t get you very far here, try finding Leicester or Gloucester that way. Uh, that may be true in the Midwest, or the West, but down here in the South, it’s much more “English” like. I grew up about 60 miles from LAN-CAS-ter, California. When I lived in Ohio, I was not far from LANG-kes-ter, Ohio. Now, I live just 20 miles north of LANG-ster, South Carolina. Where, if you ask them to do so, they will put ōl in the car, so you can go to the low-country bōl. Conversely, of course, my pastor’s name is Chip, pronounced around here as three syllables, especially if it’s your mom and she’s not happy with you and wants you home! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/56 "2017-06-04T16:23:10Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Ok, so Worcester is pronounced “Wooster”, Leicester is “Lester”, and Gloucester is “Gloster”. > > Why, then, are cities like Manchester pronounced phonetically? Shouldn’t it be called “Mooster”? Because “chester” and “cester” are not the same thing. Thus, Winchester is pronounced similarly to Manchester (not the same, because Manc is not identical to the dialect of Hampshire). If they were pronounced the same as Leicester is, they would be Manchster and Winchster, which doesn’t exactly slide off your tongue the same way. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/57 "2017-06-04T18:07:09Z")
It’s a matter of shooling. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/58 "2017-06-04T18:21:31Z")
It’s called slovening (a term I love by the way). A lot of people saying something a bit difficult for a few hundred years and it becomes smooshed. There are other technical terms but my daughter the linguist isn’t here so I cannot consult her. What I think is hysterical is what happens to French place names in the US. I remember trying to get someone to tell me how to find Calais, Maine. “Oh, you must mean Callus!” And then there’s the town I grew up in, Sanazay, founded by Spanish Franciscan missionaries and named for the sainted husband of the Virgin Mary. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/59 "2017-06-04T18:40:20Z")
There’s Hyooston texas and howston st, which is near grennich village not to be confused with green witch Ct. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/60 "2017-06-04T19:28:18Z")
There used to be even more odd shortened pronunciations of English towns which have (sadly, IMO) been dropped: Cirencester apparently used to be pronounced as “Sissiter”, and Pontefract was “Pumfrit”. Locals in a village I used to live in added an entirely superfluous extra schwa in the middle of the name. I think it basically served to distinguish the folks who weren’t from round 'ere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594.md?page=4)