# The bizarre pronunciation of certain English surnames **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2000, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594 "2000-02-19T09:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/61 "2017-06-04T20:18:29Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Further research suggests that Lea & Perrins did try to sue Holbrook’s back in the early 1900s over the use of the term of “Worcestershire Sauce,” but lost. However, they did get rights to the phrase “original and genuine.” So it sounds like anyone can use the name, but choose the more colloquial “Worcester,” since that’s what most people call it anyway. Round Sheffield most people call it Henderson’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/62 "2017-06-04T20:21:31Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Ok, so Worcester is pronounced “Wooster”, Leicester is “Lester”, and Gloucester is “Gloster”. > > Why, then, are cities like Manchester pronounced phonetically? Shouldn’t it be called “Mooster”? There’s no hard and fast rule with anything about English pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/63 "2017-06-04T20:31:52Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > There used to be even more odd shortened pronunciations of English towns which have (sadly, IMO) been dropped: Cirencester apparently used to be pronounced as “Sissiter”, and Pontefract was “Pumfrit”. > > Locals in a village I used to live in added an entirely superfluous extra schwa in the middle of the name. I think it basically served to distinguish the folks who weren’t from round 'ere. Near me, and more subtle a difference than many of the place names discussed in the thread, there’s a town named Cosham (pronounced kɒsəm) and a little further away, a village named Bosham (pronounced bɒzəm) Although interestingly, there are people in Cosham who insist on trying to popularise the pronunciation Cɒzəm - I think perhaps because Bosham is a quaint little seaside village amongst tree-lined fields, whereas Cosham is a rather grimy town on the fringe of a city. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/64 "2017-06-04T20:34:29Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Because “chester” and “cester” are not the same thing. In a sense, they are only different by accident of the dialect and process in which their spelling was fixed. ~chester, ~cester and ~caster all typically mean the same thing - that the town was the site of a Roman or earlier military fort. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/65 "2017-06-04T20:45:33Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > There’s Hyooston texas and howston st, which is near grennich village not to be confused with green witch Ct. I’m not sure if you’re joking but just in case, it’s “Grennich” in CT also. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/66 "2017-06-04T23:20:34Z")
Strangest case I’ve ever heard of (and I’ve heard this mentioned a couple of times, independently, over the years), is the British surname Enroughty, pronounced: Darby And in Texas, a twisted wire with little points sticking out of (commonly used as fencing material) is called “bar-war” (both syllables rhyme more-or-less with “car” or “tar”), or maybe more like “bahr-wahr” or “bawr-wawr” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/67 "2017-06-04T23:31:43Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > There’s no hard and fast rule with anything about English pronunciation. There does seem to be some vague pattern to it, though. Looks like “-cester” type cities typically get shortened to “-ster.” So, if it were “Mancester,” I might expect a pronunciation approaching “Manster.” While “-chester” seems to get the full phonetic value. Now, I assume there probably will be counterexamples to this observation, but it’s served me well with guessing at British pronunciations of placenames. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/68 "2017-06-04T23:32:32Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > There’s no hard and fast rule with anything about English pronunciation. There are some exceptions to that statement. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/69 "2017-06-05T01:05:01Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re joking but just in case, it’s “Grennich” in CT also. Actually believe it or not I got Greenwich, Ct. mixed up with Ellie Greenwich, the songwriter. Don’t know how that happened. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/70 "2017-06-05T03:55:54Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Locals in a village I used to live in added an entirely superfluous extra schwa in the middle of the name. I think it basically served to distinguish the folks who weren’t from round 'ere. Opening for The Chalmondaly Chums at the pally this weekend, **Superfluous Schwa** … But seriously, I absolutely hate the way Americans borrow names from other countries, and then screw up the pronunciation. Greenwich Township (Green’ Witch) NJ, Moscow (Mos’-coh) Idaho, Chili (Chai’-lai) NY, Rio (Rye’-oh) Wisconsin, and I believe the Seattle area has a Des Moines with the S’s stressed (Dezz’-Moynzz). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/71 "2017-06-05T04:02:18Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Moscow (Mos’-coh) Idaho Granted, the English word “Moscow” comes from German “Moskau,” but the “real” pronunciation is “Moskva,” which is neither of the English pronunciations, so I can’t see it as a screw up, as such. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/72 "2017-06-05T04:10:05Z")
> [@NanoByte](#): > > But what is a featherstonehaugh? My dictionary says ‘haugh’ is Scottish English for ‘a low-lying meadow in a river valley’. Is an FSH such a valley with light-weight stones? Stone is commonly split with tools known as feathers and wedges. Haugh or How is a common name for a particular place (or farmhouse) in the UK. I would guess that Feather Stone Haugh would be a place where stone is split. Or possibly a place with a farm or house made out of stone that was feathered ie split. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/73 "2017-06-05T05:08:50Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > And in Texas, a twisted wire with little points sticking out of (commonly used as fencing material) is called “bar-war” (both syllables rhyme more-or-less with “car” or “tar”), or maybe more like “bahr-wahr” or “bawr-wawr” And those nasty stinging ants are called _fahrnts_. fire ants ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/74 "2017-06-05T05:33:16Z")
After only ever reading the name in history books, I was watching a documentary on British castles and was gobsmacked to learn that “Beauchamps” is pronounced “Beechum”. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/75 "2017-06-05T06:29:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Granted, the English word “Moscow” comes from German “Moskau,” but the “real” pronunciation is “Moskva,” which is neither of the English pronunciations, so I can’t see it as a screw up, as such. The US pronunciation may come from Moskau, but in the Anglosphere it’s Moscoh and in France is Moscou (pron. Moscoo). The Spanish call it Moscu, the Italians Mosca. Take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/76 "2017-06-05T07:06:05Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Strangest case I’ve ever heard of (and I’ve heard this mentioned a couple of times, independently, over the years), is the British surname Enroughty, pronounced: > > Darby That is [a fascinating piece of history](http://www.americanheritage.com/content/enroughty-darby-and-general-mcclellan). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/77 "2017-06-05T09:52:24Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There does seem to be some vague pattern to it, though. Looks like “-cester” type cities typically get shortened to “-ster.” So, if it were “Mancester,” I might expect a pronunciation approaching “Manster.” While “-chester” seems to get the full phonetic value. Now, I assume there probably will be counterexamples to this observation, but it’s served me well with guessing at British pronunciations of placenames. yeah, sort of, but care is required, because they’re only really the way they are because of (often quite local) decisions, habits and changes of pronunciation and spelling - all of which would have been quite fluid until historically fairly recently - and quite insular a few centuries ago, when people didn’t travel often or far, so the residents of Towcester (‘Toaster’) had no real concern about what the residents of Cirencester (pronounced mostly Siren-sester, but occasionally ‘Sy-ster’) were calling their home. I checked a number ~cester/~chester places in the Domesday Book (pronounced ‘Doomsday’) - by and large, they are written as ~cestre (e.g. Tovecestre for Towcester and Cirecestre for Cirencester, but also Cicestre for Chichester, and Wincestre for Winchester. Places with names ending ~caster are generally written ~castre in the Domesday book, so it looks like that differentiation was already settled back then, but the ~cester/~chester difference, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/78 "2017-06-05T10:37:37Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > No, it’s just an old joke. I lived in MA for a couple of years and can even pronounce Peabody correctly. 😉 Got it! As well as [Endicott, Marblehead, and Athol…](http://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/endicott-peabody-man-thickest-skin-new-england/) ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/79 "2017-06-05T11:17:45Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Well, all you non-Wooedhouse fans, how do you pronounce Psmith? The P is silent …as in tub… or bath. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594/80 "2017-06-05T12:56:29Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > The US pronunciation may come from Moskau, but in the Anglosphere it’s Moscoh Mos-ko and Mos-cow are both equally acceptable pronunciations in English. Mos-cow used to be dominant and now Mos-ko is more common, but both work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bizarre-pronunciation-of-certain-english-surnames/7594.md?page=5)