# The Black Canary vs. The Phantom Lady **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 24, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695 "2005-10-24T18:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/21 "2005-10-25T03:04:08Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > No way. In order to inflict any harm on Canary Phantom Girl has to become solid, even if just her fist for an instant. At that instant Canary grabs and tosses her. To toss, she needs to hold. She won’t hold. Tinya, in all versions, is quite able to shift fast enough prevent that - if she’s lucky enough to catch in the few moments that Tinya’s fist - or foot, or knee, or whatever - is solid. Unless Dinah’s wearing gloves specifically made to hold Bgztlrs - in which case, the fight goes to her - the best she’s going to do is throw off Tinya’s attempt to hit her. And, pre-ZH, she’s a better - and more creative - fighter than you’re giving her credit for. She, like most of the Legionnaires of her era would have trained under Karate Kid (I), who managed to turn even Saturn Girl, Dream Girl and Brainiac 5, the least physical Legionnaires, into decent fighters. (I don’t think Tinya was specifically mentioned as training under Val, but the ones who were suggest he talked everyone into it, except maybe the real powerhouses - Ultra Boy, or the Daxamites and Kryptonians.) She’s also displayed the ability to non-fatally disrupt a living being’s brain functions - although I only remember her doing it once (‘I’ve been dying to try this out’), and she never explained how she did. Post-ZH Apparition isn’t near the skilled fighter that her pre-ZH equivelant was - she spent a not-insignificant portion of the run either dead or pregnant - but she still has fast shifting reflexes to make up for it. Haven’t seen Waid’s PG enough yet to really be sure, but she’s liable to be at least as good as pre-ZH - and likely less straightforward - if the rest of the Legionnaires are any indication. Phase, I haven’t read L.E.G.I.O.N. recently enough to make much of a comment on, but she was Phantom Girl, pre-ZH, so she likely had the same skills, unless her amnesia was worse than I know. > [@Menocchio](#): > > Not really anything you can do to prevent it when you’ve got Cheetah (Flash-like speed and animal senses) and Deathstroke on your case. It was a horribly one-sided fight, but that was the point, and there’s nothing to say we “shouldn’t take it seriously”. Don’t forget Dr Zoom and Bizarro. The Society was taking no chances on a miracle turnaround. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/22 "2005-10-25T04:42:37Z")
> [@](#): > > If I may pre-empt what will undoubtedly be an otherwise unrestrained adolescent tittie-fest, please, anyone who opened this thread for the explicit purpose of telling us how much you like the big breasteses and how unimaginably turned on the notion of watching two cartoon women with big breasteses fighting would make you, consider it assumed. Hey, if this was just going to be about comic book boobies, we’d include [Power Girl](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergirl) in the fight. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/23 "2005-10-25T14:06:10Z")
The winner is us, the readers, and DC’s marketing department. On the Canary / Phantom Girl issue - Canary. Why? Sonic Scream. Tinya can still hear while phased, by all indications. KO to Canary. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/24 "2005-10-25T20:02:11Z")
I personally like Phantom Lady over BC, because I like brunettes better. However, in a fight, BC, sonic scream or not. Which leads me to this question: When did BC get her Canary Cry back? I read the issue where she lost it. But, I didn’t know she got it back. I have some early issues of Birds of Prey and she didn’t seem to use it then, especially against the Savant dude. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/25 "2005-10-25T21:05:15Z")
> [@mazinger\_z](#): > > I personally like Phantom Lady over BC, because I like brunettes better. However, in a fight, BC, sonic scream or not. > > Which leads me to this question: When did BC get her Canary Cry back? I read the issue where she lost it. But, I didn’t know she got it back. I have some early issues of Birds of Prey and she didn’t seem to use it then, especially against the Savant dude. Hm. Thought she had it back by the time she ran into Savant, he’d just injured her throat to prevent her using it or something. The cry was restored after Dinah took a quick dip in the depths of a Lazarus Pit, which also youthened her a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/26 "2005-10-26T01:45:16Z")
OK, let’s get logical here. Black Canary has a good rack and great legs well set off by fishnet stockings. And I mean, the fishnet sockings are a regular part of her gear, not something she wears just sometimes. Nice butt, too, very trim (standard with superheroines, though). Then there’s the boots and the black boustier … real fetish wear, and it’s her regular costume! All she needs is a stinking collar and leash! Now we got the Phantom Lady who works in a swimsuit with cleavage down to her navel, the two upper halves of her suit struggling valiantly to contain the well-rounded rack that strains against them. No fishnets or leather boots, but she IS practically naked from the waist down except for her little green booties and the scanty bottom portion of her swimsuit, and that’s all to the good. Since Phantom Lady’s basic power is the invisibility thing, I figure she’s a grappler, getting in close to her opponent and putting the moves on her before she can react. So she materializes behind Black Canary and puts her arm around her neck, rubbing her large breasts against the leathery goodness of Canary’s boustier, inhaling her enticing scent as she does so. Black Canary however is an ultrafit martial artist with lightning reflexes, and she whirls around before Phantom Lady can tighten her breasts … er, arms … and in doing so the friction between the back of Black Canary’s boustier pulls the top off Phantom Lady’s already overstrained suit, causing them to slide sideways and allow her enormous mammarial torpedoes to spring free. Black Canary is momentarily overwhelmed at the sight of so much unexpectedly revealed jiggling womanflesh, and Phantom Lady takes advantage to lunge at Black Canary. Black Canary’s lightning like reflexes take over and she pulls Phantom Lady forward, flipping her onto her back, then leaps atop her. They wrestle on the floor, a furiously wriggling tangle of pink, rounded womanflesh and sexy black leather, legs entangled, panting, struggling … Y’know, all of a sudden I don’t care who wins … ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/27 "2005-10-26T02:52:58Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > On the Canary / Phantom Girl issue - Canary. Why? Sonic Scream. Tinya can still hear while phased, by all indications. Not an issue, since hearing it isn’t what causes problems. Or, rather, debatably an issue, since the fact that she can see/be seen and hear/be heard leads some fans (and writers) to believe she should be vulnerable to shockwaves from explosions and the like (and the Canary Cry would be ‘the like’). I tend to disagree, since she has used it to avoid such things. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/28 "2005-10-26T04:47:29Z")
So, what if we throw the Blonde Phantom into the mix? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/29 "2005-10-26T05:19:39Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > So, what if we throw the Blonde Phantom into the mix? Dude, she’s like _70_. yeah, I know there’s a new BP. shut up. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/30 "2005-10-26T12:57:05Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Not an issue, since hearing it isn’t what causes problems. Positive indication that vibrating air molecules still contact her, and hearing it can very well be a problem, if it shatters one’s eardrums. > [@](#): > > Or, rather, debatably an issue, since the fact that she can see/be seen and hear/be heard leads some fans (and writers) to believe she should be vulnerable to shockwaves from explosions and the like (and the Canary Cry would be ‘the like’). I tend to disagree, since she has used it to avoid such things. One can have it both ways. Generic explosion shockwaves not affecting her, but the Canary Cry - after BC takes a moment to adjust it to the proper vibrational frequency - knocking her flat. And after all, vibrational frequency is how Flash becomes intangible. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/31 "2005-10-26T13:47:38Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > One can have it both ways. Not without changing the nature of Bgztlrs - Bgztlrs don’t phase by vibrating, they phase by shifting partially out of ‘this’ dimention - depending on which version, either back to Bgztl’s dimention (the version used quite humourously by Waid in the current series) (or into Earth’s dimention, if they’re using their powers ON Bgztl), or into the Bgztl Buffer Zone, which functions pretty much identically to the Phantom Zone (and may, in fact, be another name for it) - Bgztlrs just have a little more interraction with the physical realms than, say, Valor. So, the Cry would likely be an ear-splitting noise, but Tinya (or any other Bgztlr, or inhabitant of the Phantom/Buffer Zone) would be spared the more deliterious effects. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/32 "2005-10-26T13:50:07Z")
Dude, you can do anything by hitting the right frequency. Have you learned nothing from Gardner Fox and Gene Roddenberry? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/33 "2005-10-26T14:06:36Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Not without changing the nature of Bgztlrs - Bgztlrs don’t phase by vibrating, they phase by shifting partially out of ‘this’ dimention - depending on which version, either back to Bgztl’s dimention (the version used quite humourously by Waid in the current series) (or into Earth’s dimention, if they’re using their powers ON Bgztl), or into the Bgztl Buffer Zone, which functions pretty much identically to the Phantom Zone (and may, in fact, be another name for it) - Bgztlrs just have a little more interraction with the physical realms than, say, Valor. So, the Cry would likely be an ear-splitting noise, but Tinya (or any other Bgztlr, or inhabitant of the Phantom/Buffer Zone) would be spared the more deliterious effects. My response is pretty much what JThunder said. Flash can vibrate into other dimensions. There’re really only three flavors of intangibility in the DCU that I recall - density manipulation (J’onn); vibration/dimensional (most folks); and the rare Astral Projection, which only seems distinct from the dimensional variety by virtue of the leaving the physical body behind. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/34 "2005-10-26T14:38:31Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > There’re really only three flavors of intangibility in the DCU that I recall - density manipulation (J’onn); vibration/dimensional (most folks); and the rare Astral Projection, which only seems distinct from the dimensional variety by virtue of the leaving the physical body behind. Jokes about Star Trek aside, vibrating between molecules (Flash) and dimentional shifting (Bgztlrs) are completely separate things. Flash’s abilities are closer to J’onn’s than to the Bgztlrs’ - his molecules can move between the molecules of what he’s moving through (in fact, Wally is clearly interacting with what he’s passing through, as he causes it to explode), but are still in the same dimention, just like J’onn’s. A Bgztlr - or a Phantom Zone prisoner, or Valor during his imprisonment, or whoever else - is in a completely different reality. And Flash’s powers allowed him to travel between the alternate Earths (with a lot of effort) - or, more recently, separate timelines - not to the Phantom/Buffer Zone, Bgztl, the Fifth Dimention, Teall, the Time Trapper’s Pocket Universe or any other extra-dimentional worlds within Earth-1/the combined Universe. (This is ignoring the fact that Dinah’s never demonstrated any control of the frequency of her cry, or the ability to reach the kinds of frequencies that Flash could.) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/35 "2005-10-26T14:59:32Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Jokes about Star Trek aside, vibrating between molecules (Flash) and dimentional shifting (Bgztlrs) are completely separate things. Flash’s abilities are closer to J’onn’s than to the Bgztlrs’ - his molecules can move between the molecules of what he’s moving through (in fact, Wally is clearly interacting with what he’s passing through, as he causes it to explode), but are still in the same dimention, just like J’onn’s. A Bgztlr - or a Phantom Zone prisoner, or Valor during his imprisonment, or whoever else - is in a completely different reality. Different dimension, just out of phase, all of them. Phantom Zone folks (during the pre-Crisis heyday of the zone) had the ability to watch and, through limited means, influence Earth. > [@](#): > > And Flash’s powers allowed him to travel between the alternate Earths (with a lot of effort) - or, more recently, separate timelines - not to the Phantom/Buffer Zone, Bgztl, the Fifth Dimention, Teall, the Time Trapper’s Pocket Universe or any other extra-dimentional worlds within Earth-1/the combined Universe. It’s not clear to me that Bgztl isn’t just another parallel Earth. The alternate Earths of the multiverse had a buffer zone, too - the Crime Syndicate was trapped there. I think the Fifth Dimension is probably distinct from the rest of the above, as it is a ‘higher’ plane. Above, not “beside”. Bgtzl (in the new series, especially) seems to have a one to one physical location correspondence to Earth. In other words, if you’re in Bgtzl, phase to Earth, move twenty feet, and phase back, you’ve moved twenty feet on Bgtzl. Similar interaction to what Flash observed when moving between Earth-1 and Earth-2. > [@](#): > > (This is ignoring the fact that Dinah’s never demonstrated any control of the frequency of her cry, or the ability to reach the kinds of frequencies that Flash could.) Logical extrapolation that she has some range, there, since it’s vocal. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/36 "2005-10-26T15:32:11Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > (This is ignoring the fact that Dinah’s never demonstrated any control of the frequency of her cry, or the ability to reach the kinds of frequencies that Flash could.) Sure she has. In Peter David’s update of the JLA’s origin, she modulated the pitch of her cry so as to shatter an Appellaxian glass creature. And she also modulated her pitch, under instruction from Dr. Mid-Nite II, in \JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice\. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/37 "2005-10-26T16:00:14Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Different dimension, just out of phase, all of them. Phantom Zone folks (during the pre-Crisis heyday of the zone) had the ability to watch and, through limited means, influence Earth. Limited NON-PHYSICAL means. Zod, or Mon-El/Valor, or, at one point, Lex Luthor, couldn’t just reach out and change things in Bgztl or Earth - it takes absurd amounts of effort for a non-Bgztlr to even be seen or heard - there is no physical interaction between the Phantom/Buffer Zone and the physical worlds. > [@](#): > > It’s not clear to me that Bgztl isn’t just another parallel Earth. It survived the Crisis, therefor it is not an alternate Earth. > [@](#): > > Logical extrapolation that she has some range, there, since it’s vocal. I’ll cede this, since Johnny’s cited examples of it. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/38 "2005-10-26T16:05:30Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Limited NON-PHYSICAL means. Zod, or Mon-El/Valor, or, at one point, Lex Luthor, couldn’t just reach out and change things in Bgztl or Earth - it takes absurd amounts of effort for a non-Bgztlr to even be seen or heard - there is no physical interaction between the Phantom/Buffer Zone and the physical worlds. This point’s getting way off the central issue, but my point about them influencing the Earth was that the dimension they’re in is not entirely separate from ours. > [@](#): > > It survived the Crisis, therefor it is not an alternate Earth. Hypertime? Tim Hunter-verses? The Crisis pretty emphatically has been shown to have failed to eliminate _all_ parallel Earths, merely _some_ parallel Earths. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/39 "2005-10-26T16:33:00Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Tim Hunter-verses? I once felt that the Vertigo stories took place in a diffrent universe. However, I was wrong to think so. The Zatanna of the Vertigo series is the exact same person as is a member of the JLA, Superheores exist, they just aren’t the focus of the stories, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/40 "2005-10-26T16:51:08Z")
The early Vertigo and pre-Vertigo books were all just spinoffs of “darker” DCU titles, taken in new, more mature directions by British writers, all under the umbrella of editor Karen Berger. The line started with Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, Sandman, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Black Orchid, and Sandman Mystery Theatre, all proven to exist in the DCU. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695.md?page=3)