# The Black Canary vs. The Phantom Lady **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 24, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695 "2005-10-24T18:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/41 "2005-10-26T19:00:52Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I once felt that the Vertigo stories took place in a diffrent universe. However, I was wrong to think so. The Zatanna of the Vertigo series is the exact same person as is a member of the JLA, Superheores exist, they just aren’t the focus of the stories, etc… Did you just make an assertion and refute yourself, all in the same post? Intentionally? I must be missing the point of what you were trying to say… unless… Did you think I meant Tim Hunter isn’t in the DCU? No, no, no. Tim Hunter, in the course of his travels, encounters parallel universe versions of himself. One website I frequent refers to the sources of these doubles as ‘Tim Hunter-verses.’ ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/42 "2005-10-26T21:28:36Z")
The winner would have to be Black Canary, especially now that she’s letting Lady Shiva mentor her. Plus, Phantom Lady’s costume manages to be more impractical than Canary’s. Though let me say from personal experience, it hurts like hell when you fall down in fishnets and they imbed themselves in the skin on your knees. It hurts even worse to pull it out again. Leaves interesting scars though! ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/43 "2005-10-27T02:43:56Z")
Let me get this straight. You’re female, you read comic books, and you wear… you wear fishnet stockings? So, how _you_ doin’? ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/44 "2005-10-27T02:50:14Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Let me get this straight. You’re female, you read comic books, and you wear… you wear fishnet stockings? > > So, how _you_ doin’? She also has a large chest, loves Geoff Johns, and worked in a comic book store. That where she met her husband. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/45 "2005-10-27T03:15:06Z")
Does she have a sister? Y’know… with fishnets? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/46 "2005-10-27T03:36:15Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > This point’s getting way off the central issue, but my point about them influencing the Earth was that the dimension they’re in is not entirely separate from ours. Physically, they most certainly are. Claiming otherwise ignores the demonstrated nature of the place. > [@](#): > > Hypertime? Tim Hunter-verses? The Crisis pretty emphatically has been shown to have failed to eliminate _all_ parallel Earths, merely _some_ parallel Earths. Both introduced after Crisis. No Earth introduced before (or during) Crisis survived (nor did most introduced after) - they were either destroyed, or combined into a single more or less coherant universe. Bgztl also predates the Infinite Earths concept by a couple months. So, Bgztl survived the creation, proliferation, destruction, and re-introduction of the Infinite Earths construct without once being referred to as, or treated like, another Earth. Therefor it is not another Earth. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/47 "2005-10-27T13:26:03Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Physically, they most certainly are. Claiming otherwise ignores the demonstrated nature of the place. They overlay the same physical space - so they are physically connected, even if the typical inhabitants of one cannot typically physically influence the inhabitants of the other. > [@](#): > > Both introduced after Crisis. No Earth introduced before (or during) Crisis survived (nor did most introduced after) - they were either destroyed, or combined into a single more or less coherant universe. Not quite correct. Example to follow next section… > [@](#): > > Bgztl also predates the Infinite Earths concept by a couple months. > > So, Bgztl survived the creation, proliferation, destruction, and re-introduction of the Infinite Earths construct without once being referred to as, or treated like, another Earth. > > Therefor it is not another Earth. Let us ignore for the moment the other-dimensional realm into which Superman-2 disappeared with Superboy-Prime at the end of Crisis, which The Kingdom suggested as having the properties of a parallel Earth. Let us also ignore the extremely entertaining Planetary/Batman crossover that suggested the Crisis was a ‘partial multiversal collapse.’ I give you Earth 3. Home of the Crime Syndicate. Unlike Bgztl, it was introduced long before the Crisis. Like Bgztl, it survived the Crisis - after a fashion. It was recast into the Anti-Matter Universe. (Even Crisis notes that there were _two_ Universes) I will further assert that neither Bgztl nor Earth-3 survived the Crisis, per se, but were rebuilt and replaced by very similar equivalents. In that rebuilding, Earth-3 got bumped into the Anti-Matter Universe. Quite the switch. Whatever Bgztl may have been before the Crisis, it has no bearing on what Bgztl is post-Crisis and post-Zero Hour. Hypertime may be a retcon, certainly - but it is how things are. There are parallel Earths that the core DCU can access. Bgztl may well be one of them. Note, though, that it doesn’t have to be for BC to use her cry on Phantom Girl - I just note that the Bgztl of the current Legion Series functions a lot like Earth-1/Earth-2 used to. Can Phantom Girl hear while phased? (or at least, while sufficiently phased in to track a target in a dimension) If the answer is yes, then vibrating molecules of air do interact with her. I think this makes it likely that Canary’s cry could knock her flat, and all but guarantees that Canary could, at the very least, shatter PG’s inner ear and render her unable to fight or stand. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/48 "2005-10-27T14:41:53Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Does she have a sister? > > Y’know… with fishnets? I have a sister, but she has no fishnets and we’re nothing alike. You want no part of that, trust me. Sorry! And I have another sister, but she’s 11 years old. 🙂 Whoops, we seem to have hijacked the thread! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/49 "2005-10-27T15:57:41Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Unlike Bgztl, it was introduced long before the Crisis. Bgztl was introduced in the May 1961 issue of Adventure. 5 months before Earth-2 (and the Infinite Earths construct). About 25 years before Crisis. More than 3 years before Earth-3. Bgztl is older than Earth-3. Older than the entire Infinite Earths construct. Earth-3 was destroyed in Crisis, then a new version was added after Crisis. Bgztl, tellingly, was not destroyed. Nor was it among the 5 Earths at the end of Crisis. It wasn’t even mentioned in any of the Legion issues that tied into Crisis (which dealt with 1) the Universe being destroyed, 2) The death of Supergirl, and 3) exactly how Superboy could be a member when he didn’t exist). Bgztl was never, in the 25 years between the introduction of the Infinite Earths construct, and its elimination, referred to as an alternate Earth. And, of course, we once again come back to my point - Bgztl is not an alternate Earth, even if it ever had been, since it survived Crisis, and none of the Infinite Earths that pre-existed Crisis ever had. Also… > [@](#): > > I just note that the Bgztl of the current Legion Series functions a lot like Earth-1/Earth-2 used to. I just note that the Bgztl of the current Legion Series functions a lot like Earth-1/Earth-2 used to. Not particularly. You can be on Waid-Bgztl and Earth at the same time - in fact, if you’re a Bgztlr using phantom powers, you HAVE to be. Barring time travel, you cannot be on Earth-1 and Earth-2 at the same time. > [@](#): > > Can Phantom Girl hear while phased? (or at least, while sufficiently phased in to track a target in a dimension) If the answer is yes, then vibrating molecules of air do interact with her. Can Phantom Girl hear while phased? (or at least, while sufficiently phased in to track a target in a dimension) If the answer is yes, then vibrating molecules of air do interact with her. Can Phantom Girl hear while phased? (or at least, while sufficiently phased in to track a target in a dimension) If the answer is yes, then vibrating molecules of air do interact with her. Again, the Bgztl Buffer Zone and the Phantom Zone are the _same place_. Everyone in the Zone can see and hear what’s happening in the physical worlds. But they do not interact with the worlds on a physical level. The fact that except for Bgztlrs, nobody in the Zone can be seen or heard, despite having both senses themselves, makes it rather obvious that it isn’t a standard physical interaction. Phantom Girl can see and hear for the same reason a Phantom Zone prisoner can. Their nature just allows the ‘broadcast’ across dimentions to work in two directions. Yes, the Canary Cry would be a loud, obnoxious noise. But that’s all it would be. And a loud, obnoxious noise isn’t terribly debilitating, when she can shift entirely to Bgztl to get ear protection, or just wait out Dinah’s lungs. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/50 "2005-10-27T16:01:59Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > And, of course, we once again come back to my point - Bgztl is not an alternate Earth, even if it ever had been, since it survived Crisis, and none of the Infinite Earths that pre-existed Crisis ever had. I really should have previewed. This line makes no sense. If you make the assumption - unsupported and contradictory though it is - that Bgztl was an alternate Earth before Crisis, after Crisis, even allowing that some Earths survived outside the effects of Crisis, Bgztl is not one of them, since it remained in continuity after Crisis. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/51 "2005-10-27T16:13:03Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Bgztl was introduced in the May 1961 issue of Adventure. 5 months before Earth-2 (and the Infinite Earths construct). About 25 years before Crisis. More than 3 years before Earth-3. Sorry, I misread your statement about the genesis of the dimension. > [@](#): > > And, of course, we once again come back to my point - Bgztl is not an alternate Earth, even if it ever had been, since it survived Crisis, and none of the Infinite Earths that pre-existed Crisis ever had. Earth-3 survived. And remained in continuity, in its own fashion - rather, was restored to continuity. Also, the continuity status of anything in the Legion between Crisis and the reboot is strongly suspect. The Legion’s whole timeline was essentially an alternate Earth at that point. > [@](#): > > Not particularly. You can be on Waid-Bgztl and Earth at the same time - in fact, if you’re a Bgztlr using phantom powers, you HAVE to be. Barring time travel, you cannot be on Earth-1 and Earth-2 at the same time. You can be seen on both but you can’t physically interact with both. That was an important criteria to you when trying to make the point about the Phantom Zone… Phantom Girl is no longer really ‘on’ her homeworld when solid on Waid-Earth. She can be seen, and possibly see, but can’t interact with it physically. > [@](#): > > Yes, the Canary Cry would be a loud, obnoxious noise. But that’s all it would be. And a loud, obnoxious noise isn’t terribly debilitating, when she can shift entirely to Bgztl to get ear protection, or just wait out Dinah’s lungs. You don’t seem to understand how sound works… and I think you underestimate how quickly the Canary Cry can hurt people. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/52 "2005-10-27T17:03:49Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Earth-3 survived. And remained in continuity, in its own fashion - rather, was restored to continuity. Also, the continuity status of anything in the Legion between Crisis and the reboot is strongly suspect. The Legion’s whole timeline was essentially an alternate Earth at that point. See my clarification of that point. And, no, there is nothing ‘highly suspect’ about Legion continuity in general between Crisis and Zero Hour, aside from those things directly affected by it - specifically, Superboy, Supergirl and Mon-El. Eventually, under Giffen and the Bierbaums, the Time Trapper became suspect, but that was an attempt to clean up the above 3. > [@](#): > > You can be seen on both but you can’t physically interact with both. True, but rather beside the point, which is that it has no particular resemblance to Earth-2’s interaction with Earth-1. > [@](#): > > I think you underestimate how quickly the Canary Cry can hurt people. No, I don’t. I just restrict my speculations to the demonstrated limits of their powers. I’ve seen the Canary Cry in action often enough to know that it doesn’t ‘shatter the inner ear’ and cripple a person. If the target weathers the initial assault, they’ll be as able to fight after it passes as they would if the initial assault had been a beating at Wildcat’s hands - unless they’re fighting blind and relying on their hearing. Tinya is perfectly capable of weathering the initial assault, and that’s all she needs to do. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695/53 "2005-10-27T17:29:52Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > See my clarification of that point. I did. > [@](#): > > And, no, there is nothing ‘highly suspect’ about Legion continuity in general between Crisis and Zero Hour, aside from those things directly affected by it - specifically, Superboy, Supergirl and Mon-El. Eventually, under Giffen and the Bierbaums, the Time Trapper became suspect, but that was an attempt to clean up the above 3. Sure there is. It was essentially a closed-loop divergent timeline. It had some severe causality issues. > [@](#): > > True, but rather beside the point, which is that it has no particular resemblance to Earth-2’s interaction with Earth-1. As Flash changes his vibrations to align with another world, he fades from Earth-One even as he appears in Earth-2. This wasn’t always the depiction, but it was used. He could therefore be seen in both places at once, during the transition. > [@](#): > > No, I don’t. I just restrict my speculations to the demonstrated limits of their powers. > > I’ve seen the Canary Cry in action often enough to know that it doesn’t ‘shatter the inner ear’ and cripple a person. If the target weathers the initial assault, they’ll be as able to fight after it passes as they would if the initial assault had been a beating at Wildcat’s hands - unless they’re fighting blind and relying on their hearing. Tinya is perfectly capable of weathering the initial assault, and that’s all she needs to do. Of course it doesn’t **always** shatter the inner ear - that’s a pretty nasty injury to inflict on someone unnecessarily. Dinah wouldn’t use it at full blast to begin with unless she knew the target was of extraordinary durability or was otherwise protected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-black-canary-vs-the-phantom-lady/327695.md?page=2)