# The Blurry Line Between "Domestic Servant" and "Slave" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290 "2008-07-04T13:11:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/1 "2008-07-04T13:11:14Z")
This is a piece of news that I first read about in Spanish and Dutch newspapers. Here you have a couple of English-language links. [Times of London](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4258475.ece) [Daily Telegraph](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/unitedarabemirates/2236851/Women-%27enslaved%27-by-Arab-royals.html) _ **SIGH** _ I would say that words fail me, but it is my understanding that treating servants in that way is not unusual in the country of origin of those rich people. My personal feelings are that I would like to hang the aforesaid rich people by their figgin, but that’s another matter. However… There is one thing that is very clear to me: Don’t tell me that the directive of the hotel didn’t know what was going on! That is the ONE thing that I am NOT going to believe. Just my 2 upset eurocent! ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/2 "2008-07-04T13:18:00Z")
(Gah, edit window missed!) Just to add that the two reports have some slight differences (the biggest one being that one newspaper talks of 15 people, and the other of 17), but that the basic story is consistent throughout the whole array of sources I’ve been reading. Just my 2 eurocent! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/3 "2008-07-04T15:23:52Z")
I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/4 "2008-07-04T15:43:12Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I disagree. [/QUOTE] You disagree with what? With my comment about this situation not being unusual in the country of origin of the employers? With my assertion that the direction of the hotel must have known about what was going on? With my personal feelings about what the employers would deserve (to be hung by their figgin)? With my too-late-for-edit comment that I found the story to be essentially consistent throughout in the versions I had access to? With all of the above? With some of the above? With what do you disagree? Just my 2 eurocent! ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/5 "2008-07-04T15:50:48Z")
You haven’t submitted anything for debate; what are we debating here? Your OP is basically just chit-chat about the incident. Well-constructed, but as it stands, more MPSIMS or Pit material. Is the reason for the non-reply, I’m guessing. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/6 "2008-07-04T16:10:53Z")
The title presents a debate: what constitutes slavery in today’s world? The people involved were not owned in a traditional sense. They could not be sold to others as property. But they were working under coercion. Does slavery require the ability to be sold? Apparently not, today’s slaves are defined by physical threats and/or physical bondage. But is an implied threat, coupled with poor working conditions and extremely low or no pay sufficient to define slavery? Is it true as has been claimed that over 27 million are slaves today and that the price in real dollars for a slave has never been less? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/7 "2008-07-04T16:14:05Z")
Theres no “blurry line” between domestic servants and slaves. Servants are free to leave, slaves are not. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/8 "2008-07-04T16:19:09Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] The title presents a debate: what constitutes slavery in today’s world? The people involved were not owned in a traditional sense. They could not be sold to others as property. But they were working under coercion. Does slavery require the ability to be sold? Apparently not, today’s slaves are defined by physical threats and/or physical bondage. But is an implied threat, coupled with poor working conditions and extremely low or no pay sufficient to define slavery? Is it true as has been claimed that over 27 million are slaves today and that the price in real dollars for a slave has never been less? [/QUOTE] It doesn’t sound like they were ‘owned’ so to speak, but they were apparantly being kept there against their will. I would call it slavery or at the very least kidnapping. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/9 "2008-07-04T16:42:20Z")
[A source about today’s slavey.](http://www.freetheslaves.net/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=301&srcid=348) > [@](#): > > Through Free the Slaves’ research, first published in Kevin Bales’ Disposable People, our conservative estimate is that there are 27 million people in slavery today. This means that there are more people in slavery today than at any other time in human history. … > > … This new slavery has two prime characteristics: slaves today are cheap and they are disposable. > > An average slave in the American South in 1850 cost the equivalent of $40,000 in today’s money; today a slave costs an average of $90. In 1850 it was difficult to capture a slave and then transport them to the US. Today, millions of economically and socially vulnerable people around the world are potential slaves. This “supply” makes slaves today cheaper than they have ever been. Since they are so cheap, slaves are today are not considered a major investment worth maintaining. If slaves get sick, are injured, outlive their usefulness, or become troublesome to the slaveholder, they are dumped or killed. > > For most slave holders, actually legally ‘owning’ the slave is an inconvenience since they already exert total control over the individuals labor and profits… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/10 "2008-07-04T16:44:04Z")
> **[Man in Slave Case Sentenced to 3 Years (Published 2008)](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/nyregion/28slave.html?ref=nyregion)** > > Mahender Sabhnani was found guilty of forced labor, conspiracy, involuntary servitude and harboring aliens. Happened in NY, too. That said, it ain’t blurry. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/11 "2008-07-04T16:47:21Z")
[QUOTE=DigitalC] Theres no “blurry line” between domestic servants and slaves. Servants are free to leave, slaves are not. [/QUOTE] So to make this a debate … is a prostitute who is kept working by an abusive pimp who threatens her with violence if she leaves him (and is therefore not free to leave) a slave? ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/12 "2008-07-04T17:30:00Z")
Whoops. Sorry for starting this thread in the wrong forum. Some moderator might be so kind to transfer it to a more appropriate one? I think that the subject deserves talking about, though. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/13 "2008-07-04T17:43:48Z")
[QUOTE=DigitalC] Theres no “blurry line” between domestic servants and slaves. [/QUOTE] That may be correct today, but historically? Servitude and slavery have different definitions for every time and place they exist, and the line between wasn’t always that clear.. You had racial-base American slavery, biblical-type slavery,indentured servitude, serfs/bondservents, thralls, Jannissaries… the list goes on. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/14 "2008-07-04T18:59:57Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] That may be correct today, but historically? Servitude and slavery have different definitions for every time and place they exist, and the line between wasn’t always that clear.. You had racial-base American slavery, biblical-type slavery,indentured servitude, serfs/bondservents, thralls, Jannissaries… the list goes on. [/QUOTE] Right - that’s why in much of the world the prohibition adopted is one on “slavery _or involuntary servitude_”. Because \*“chattel” slavery \* is, if anything, the easiest form of bondage to identify and curtail. The reality is that throughout human history, the norm has been for some people to be in bondage to others who consider themselves entitled to be masters, if not by property right of purchase then by right of conquest or of bloodline. (And there will always be those who say, if the only choice to escape bondage is death, well too bad, you should choose the death… easy to say from the other side) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/15 "2008-07-04T20:28:22Z")
The big distinction is that some of these people were able to escape to the police, who then came in and freed the rest. If they had truly been slaves, the police would have brought them back to their legal owners. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/16 "2008-07-04T21:35:14Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] The big distinction is that some of these people were able to escape to the police, who then came in and freed the rest. If they had truly been slaves, the police would have brought them back to their legal owners. [/QUOTE] That argument makes the assumption that it’s impossible to hold someone as a slave someplace where it’s illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/17 "2008-07-04T21:44:24Z")
I think there’s a distinction between being held as a captive and being held as a slave. Being a slave is worse because you’re essentially being held by the entire country not just your captors. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/18 "2008-07-04T21:55:51Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Being a slave is worse because you’re essentially being held by the entire country not just your captors. [/QUOTE] That is not a necessary defining characteristic of a slave. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/19 "2008-07-05T00:05:04Z")
> [@](#): > > That is not a necessary defining characteristic of a slave. There’s a lot of possible definitions of what a slave is. PETA, for example, claim that cats and dogs are slaves. But I think the most widely accepted definition of a slave is a person who is owned by another person. If you disagree, what do you feel the defining characteristics of slavery are? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290/20 "2008-07-05T00:29:33Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] If you disagree, what do you feel the defining characteristics of slavery are? [/QUOTE] Either someone held as property ( legally or not ), or someone forced to work without pay ( again, legally or not ). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-blurry-line-between-domestic-servant-and-slave/455290.md?page=2)