# The Border Fence Is Not a "Berlin Wall" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065 "2006-10-27T03:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/21 "2006-10-27T18:32:26Z")
[Quote=Boyo Jim] It will do nothing but enrich some fencing materials suppliers, and be a backdrop for a bunch of 2008 political commercials. [/Quote] Geez, everyone’s moaning about the cost, so why isn’t the government selling advertising space, on both sides? You could fit a fair few billboards on 700 miles of wall, I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/22 "2006-10-27T18:50:17Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Geez, everyone’s moaning about the cost, so why isn’t the government selling advertising space, on both sides? You could fit a fair few billboards on 700 miles of wall, I reckon. [/QUOTE] Think bigger, man. The government should auction off naming rights like all the sporting venues do. How about the Pepsi wall, or the Taco Bell Fence (make a run for the border, all right), or the Borders Books Border? ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/23 "2006-10-27T18:53:41Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] If the Mexicans were building it, it would be comparable. [/QUOTE] Duh, who do you _THINK_ is gonna build it? Cheap immigrant labor of course! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/24 "2006-10-27T19:06:55Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] As for the people running, swimming and jumping across the border (wow, it sounds like the Illegal Alien Steeplechase), they should try to make their country better and not flee to the US. Overthrow their government, kick out the corrupt politicians, rebuild the infrastructure, fight the crime. If they could clean up their own house, they could really kick ass. Instead it seems like people are either just considering their status as a _fait accompli_ or else leaving the country. [/QUOTE] Mexico tried to kick out some crooks in their recent election. No success–& the vote counting was a bit suspect. Mexico also had a Revolution/Civil War from 1910 to 1920. Over a million Mexicans died & many more fled North. End result: No great improvement for all too many Mexicans. The Fence is a giant boondoggle. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/25 "2006-10-27T19:27:24Z")
[QUOTE=ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness] Think bigger, man. The government should auction off naming rights like all the sporting venues do. How about the Pepsi wall, or the Taco Bell Fence (make a run for the border, all right), or the Borders Books Border? [/QUOTE] That’s good stuff. 😃 How about the Blockbuster Unbustable Blocks? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/26 "2006-10-27T19:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=adam yax] Misses the point. Generally speaking the wall would be to keep people from moving to a more prosperous economy. The wall can keep people from seeing their relatives and the wall would be across land that used to belong to one country. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. Mexicans who wants to visit here to see their relatives can do so legally. The wall only prevents them from doing so illegally. Actually, it won’t even do that-- it’ll just make a wee bit harder. BTW, any East German who did make it to West Germany was not sent back. The wall had 0 to do with keeping people out of West Germany and everything to do with keeping them in East Germany. This analogy is excedingly stupid. Thousands of Mexicans cross the border legally every fucking day and that will continue after this wall is built. I agree that it’s a cheap (or expensive, depending on how you look at it) political ploy, but it ain’t no Berlin Wall. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/27 "2006-10-27T22:25:45Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I nominate this for the newly-created award of Best Topical SDMB Post of All Time. In fact, I’m going to steal that for my away message. [/QUOTE] Whoo hoo! Thanks, I’m flattered. I see. actually, THREE basic types of 2008 Mexican Wall comercials. The “Pro Wall” people will do something like this: The image will be of the most heavily built and and fortified section of the wall with a gate. Along the south side of the wall people are curled up sleeping, or leaning against it, unable to get any farther. At the gate, on the south side there will be a long row of people clutching luggage and batches of paperwork, slowly winding into the northside INS checkpoint. There will be smiling uniformed officals, guards with M16s (after all, we need to be able to blow away terrorists trying to get through our borders), and waggy-tailed German Shepherds. At the north end whole immigrant families board buses taking them away to their happy new well-documnented future. Then there will be the “We Need MORE Wall” people: They will position their cameras a few hundred yards past the end of the wall. The image will be of endless streams of brown people strolling across the border unconcerned near the walls’s edge. Some will come from along the south side of the wall and turn a coner. Some will just alter their course a few degrees to the side as they walk northward. And a few of them in the blurry distance _might_ be wearing turbans. Finally there will be the “Anti Wall” people: THEY will show East and West Germans tearing down the Berlin Wall, and the Great Wall of China with a million people walking along the top. The caption will simply read, “Walls don’t work.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/28 "2006-10-27T22:30:52Z")
Something there is that does not love a wall… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/29 "2006-10-27T22:41:28Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] If we want to show we are serious about protecting our borders, then go whole hog. Razor wire, mines, rabid pit bulls, lady wrestlers with PMS, disgruntled postal workers and Amway salespeople should be spread along the border. Otherwise it’s just all for show. [/QUOTE] Yup. Although Bush isn’t pushing for the fence, to me it seems just like his handling of GW2: something I support him in but in which he/they completely screw up the implementation. And in both cases it’s due too few resources when much more is obviously needed. Geesh,with this wall we’ll be a billion+ poorer and get _nothing_ from it. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/30 "2006-10-27T22:45:25Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Bullshit. Mexicans who wants to visit here to see their relatives can do so legally. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. Many if not most are denied visas to visit the US. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/31 "2006-10-27T23:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Bullshit. Many if not most are denied visas to visit the US. [/QUOTE] Far as I know, Mexican citizens do not need a visa to enter the United States. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/32 "2006-10-27T23:54:36Z")
Is it worth noting that the “Fence Bill” [doesn’t actually fund the building of a fence,](http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/26/bush-fence-bill/) but serves merely as an election-year grandstanding prop? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/33 "2006-10-27T23:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Far as I know, Mexican citizens do not need a visa to enter the United States. Am I wrong? [/QUOTE] I find that I am, indeed, [wrong](http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/id_visa/req_canada_mexico.xml). > [@](#): > > Entry of Citizens of Mexico > In general, a citizen of Mexico must have a passport and nonimmigrant visa or Form DSP-150 (also known as a “Laser Visa”). Form DSP-150 is a biometric, machine readable, B1-B2 Visa/border crossing card that may be used to enter the United States from within the Western Hemisphere. If coming from outside the Western Hemisphere, a passport is required. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/34 "2006-10-28T00:31:53Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Bullshit. Many if not most are denied visas to visit the US. [/QUOTE] I doubt it. > [@](#): > > [United States–Mexico border](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-Mexico_border) > > The border’s total length is 1,951 miles (3,141 km), according to figures given by the International Boundary and Water Commission. It is the most frequently crossed international border in the world, with some 350 million people crossing (legally) every year. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/35 "2006-10-28T00:33:07Z")
To take the last bit first: The intent of the Berlin Wall (and the rest of the _TodesZone_) was of course to keep people in, not out. This isn’t a nitpick, it’s actually a pretty crucial distinction - it’s the difference between a prison and a fortress. In the grand scheme of things, there’s nothing too wrong with a country trying to control immigration. Of course, in the specifics, the US-Mexico border situation is utterly FUBAR - what with the apparent need for Mexican labour, the lack of enforcement of existing laws etc. etc. On the other hand, in order to work, the Border Fence will have to emulate the Berlin Wall in one respect: It willl have to be deadly. East Germany didn’t pour resources into making border crossings incredibly dangerous because they had nothing better to do. If they could have come up with a passive impassable fence, they undoubtedly would have. They couldn’t, hence the mines and attack dogs and self-shooters. The East German border crossers were smart, resourceful and determined to make a better life for themselves. So are the people who cross from Mexico. If anything, I’d guess the Mexicans have more of a motivation - they won’t be thrown in jail for even mentioning the idea of crossing, they can gather materials and observe and make plans openly, and their families won’t suffer reprisals if they make it across. And they’re already willing to run major risks to life and limb. People die crossing the border. So we should probably look into what level of force we’ll accept, as compared to what risks the border-crossers are prepared to run. If nothing but deathly force will stop a determined attempt to cross the border - and that is the lesson that the Berlin Wall teaches - is that acceptable ? Even in this age of waterboarding and stress positions, I’d hope not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/36 "2006-10-28T00:41:24Z")
[QUOTE=Spiny Norman] On the other hand, in order to work, the Border Fence will have to emulate the Berlin Wall in one respect: It willl have to be deadly. East Germany didn’t pour resources into making border crossings incredibly dangerous because they had nothing better to do. If they could have come up with a passive impassable fence, they undoubtedly would have. They couldn’t, hence the mines and attack dogs and self-shooters. [/QUOTE] No. In order for it work, it just has to channel the illegal immigrants into a smaller crossing area so that the limited number of border guards can be more effective. I don’t support the fence, but I don’t think anyone is expecting it to be the only thing that slows down illegal traffic. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/37 "2006-10-28T01:13:45Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I doubt it. [/QUOTE] Why do you doubt it? Do you know what the US requires for Mexicans to visit the US? Didn’t think so. I highly doubt that 350 million people cross the border each year, which would be more than the entire adult population of México, Canada and the US combined. Better said that there are 350 million crossings, what with many border residents crossing over and back frequently. Many Mexicans hold a Border Crossing Card which allows them to visit the border area only. And how many of those 350 million crossings are made by Americans crossing into Mexico and back? Right now the waiting period at the US Consulate in Guadalajara just to be interviewed for a visa with no guarantee of recieving it, is 8 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/38 "2006-10-28T06:32:15Z")
Build bridges, not walls. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/39 "2006-10-28T06:56:15Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux] Build bridges, not walls. [/QUOTE] Bridges over what? If you need a bridge, that means you have a river, gorge or moat, and in that case a wall is pretty redundant. Bridges are like gates - they presuppose barriers. ---
**Author:** ![seenidog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@seenidog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seenidog)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065/40 "2006-10-28T08:04:40Z")
Maybe I am off the wall (or the fence) but the way to target this is to target the employers of illegal aliens, when the jobs dry up, then guess what? No more free health care, no more welfare, no more benefits of being a tax paying citizen without being a tax paying citizen, the traffic will slow down considerably. Shoot, it would be like being in Mexico. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-border-fence-is-not-a-berlin-wall/378065.md?page=3)