# The Boston Marathon Bombing Debate Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799 "2013-04-15T23:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/301 "2013-04-20T23:20:22Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > “Straw man” means arguing against something not put forward. The argument put forward is “if it saves lives its [sic] worth it.” I am showing what the consequences of that belief are. > > (I know this is the Internet where “straw man” means “magic word to dismiss anyone disagreeing with me,” but I thought you would like to know what the term means in English.) No. That poster was commenting on a specific procedure. The tradeoffs are worth it, because it might save lives. There is no reason to extrapolate that beyond the specific procedure being discussed. Bringing up torture is a strawman, and you also took his comment out of context. Two strikes. One more, and you’re out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/302 "2013-04-20T23:34:07Z")
Further: If I say “traffic lights are a restriction on our freedom [they are, no doubt] but they are worth it because they save lives”, would you come along as say: “So, torture is OK?” That would be absurd. As is the case here. It was put forth that the “public safety” exception was worth it because it saves lives. “Saving lives” was not thrown out there as a general principle, meant to justify anything. No on said “anything is worth it, if it saves lives”. But you chose to read the post that way, ignoring the context and throwing in a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/303 "2013-04-20T23:35:21Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > “Straw man” means arguing against something not put forward. The argument put forward is “if it saves lives its [sic] worth it.” I am showing what the consequences of that belief are. > > (I know this is the Internet where “straw man” means “magic word to dismiss anyone disagreeing with me,” but I thought you would like to know what the term means in English.) You seem to be inferring that the original assertion was something like, “Anything that saves lives is worth it.” That’s not a reasonable inference. “If we do X, sure there’s a potential downside, but if doing X saves lives, then it’s worth it” does not in any way imply that “_anything_ that saves lives is worth it.” It means that X is worth its associated risks, and nothing more than that. I see on preview that John already said as much. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/304 "2013-04-20T23:42:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. That poster was commenting on a specific procedure. The tradeoffs are worth it, because it might save lives. There is no reason to extrapolate that beyond the specific procedure being discussed. This is what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/305 "2013-04-21T05:42:14Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So this is what I’ve gathered from watching the news. > Arson = criminal > Serial killer / spree shooter = criminal > Poison = criminal, unless it’s something scary like ricin/anthrax, then it’s terrorism > Bombs = terrorism > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, all of those things could be terrorism or they could not be depending on the motive and the results of the actions. Not sure why you think that oversimplification has any validity. > > Terrorism generally includes a political motive, but you commonly hear that a serial killer, on the lose, has terrorized a community. > > Bombs planted at the end of the Boston Marathon, targeting random people is terrorism and criminal. They are not mutually exclusive, you know. “Beltway Sniper” John Allen Muhammad was convicted under a terrorism law. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/306 "2013-04-21T13:11:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He is getting due process of the law (there is a reason that phrase is in there), which allows forgoing the Miranda stuff. > > You don’t want a bomber to clam up and make the FBI wait until his lawyer arrives. This actually is the rare instance of a potential “ticking time bomb”. You all are over-thinking this Miranda thing… it’s just the Obama Admin wanting to appear tough on crime while they push gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/307 "2013-04-21T13:22:57Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > You all are over-thinking this Miranda thing… it’s just the Obama Admin wanting to appear tough on crime while they push gun control. You forgot to add a winky smiley to the end of that. Well, either that or you’re a nut case. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/308 "2013-04-21T13:31:14Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Well, either that or you’re a nut case. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/309 "2013-04-21T13:34:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Is there a deadline for this exception or is it like Guantánmo but with non-rhotic accents? The general commentary I have seen has suggested 48 hours. Whether the clock starts at the point he was detained or the clock starts when he recovers sufficiently to be questioned, I have not heard. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/310 "2013-04-21T17:16:12Z")
> [@Lucky\_Mike](#): > > Thank you for the response. > > This is an excellent anecdote of cooperation and response and it is good to hear. > > Were there any people who did not consent to a house search and the search still occurred? > > i honestly do not know. I found and read this thread because a FB friend and I got into a debate about this. His initial post was that people were cheering for martial law. He eventually conceeded that it wasn’t called martial law, but essentially was. Was anybody arrested or charged with anything for going outside or opening their business on that day? Did anybody get their house searched unwillingly? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/311 "2013-04-21T17:57:06Z")
Wait. Were people ordered inside or was thart just an advisory? ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/312 "2013-04-21T19:30:10Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Which is why I said “almost universally.” > > Let’s compare lists: > > AL QAEDA AFFILIATED ATTACKS > 1993 WTC Bombing > 1998 U.S. Embassy Bombing > 2000 USS Cole Bombing > 2001 9/11 > 2001 Richard Reid (Shoe Bomber) > 2002 Bali Bombing > 2004 Madrid Train Bombing > 2005 London Tube Bombing > 2009 Underwear Bomber > 2010 That FedExing Bombs to US Synagogues Thing > > RIGHT-WING DOMESTIC TERRORIST > 1995 Timothy McVeigh > 1996 Atlanta Olympics/Eric Rudoplh > 2010 That Guy Who Flew an Airplane into the IRS Building in Texas LEFT WING - Domestic terrorist group 1973-75 Symbionese Liberation Army (complete with a HUGE shoot-out with LAPD) > **[Symbionese Liberation Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army)** > > The United Federated Forces of the Symbionese Liberation Army (commonly referred to simply as the SLA) was a small, American militant far-left organization active between 1973 and 1975; it claimed to be a vanguard movement. The FBI and wider American law enforcement considered the SLA to be the first terrorist organization to rise from the American left. Six members died in a May 1974 shootout with police in Los Angeles. The three surviving fugitives recruited new members, but nearly all of th Patty Hearst was my doppelganger at the time & I remember this episode very well. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/313 "2013-04-21T19:35:24Z")
There have been more than 1 organized groups that attacked abortion clinics. Those are obviously “right wing domestic terrorist attacks” unless we’re only talking about totally random targets as “terrorism.” Similarly, are you excluding when groups of Christians attack gay people? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/314 "2013-04-21T19:54:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wait. Were people ordered inside or was thart just an advisory? Technically nobody was ordered to stay inside, but when men in black armored combat gear are knocking on your door and saying, “we need you to stay off the streets” it can certainly come across as one. I can assure you as someone who was nearby, most people took it as more than just an advisory and it was truly astonishing how few people ventured outdoors. Even in blizzards or hurricanes when the state declares a state of emergency and tells everyone to stay inside, there always a few idiots who head out and decide to fuck around. Frankly, I was really disturbed. I’m old enough to remember the Oklahoma City bombing and the manhunt for the perpetrators which despite being far deadlier didn’t involve locking down an entire city. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/315 "2013-04-21T20:11:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Frankly, I was really disturbed. > > I’m old enough to remember the Oklahoma City bombing and the manhunt for the perpetrators which despite being far deadlier didn’t involve locking down an entire city. Well, McVeigh was not picked up after he and Nichls shot a policeman, carjacked an SUV, got into a running firefight with the police, including having them throw bombs from their vehicle, with McVeigh disappearing into a neighborhood after abandoning Nichols’s body in the street. There was no lock down on the day of the bombing, only after the actual gunfight. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/316 "2013-04-21T22:12:45Z")
There is a good chance investigators and prosecutors may not be hamstrung by time limits on the Miranda exception. See link: [NTY (2/20/13): Legal Questions Riddle Boston Marathon Case](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/us/legal-questions-riddle-boston-marathon-case.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) (from link): > [@](#): > > The administration has said it planned to begin questioning the younger Mr. Tsarnaev for a period without delivering the Miranda warning that he had a right to remain silent and to have a lawyer present. > > Normally such a warning is necessary if prosecutors want to introduce statements made by a suspect in custody as evidence in court, but the administration said it was invoking an exception for questions about immediate threats to public safety. _ **The Justice Department has pressed the view that in terrorism cases the length of time and type of questioning that fall under that exception is broader than what would be permissible in ordinary criminal cases, a view upheld by a federal judge in the case of the man convicted of trying to bomb a Detroit-bound airliner in 2009** _. > > Civil libertarians have objected to the more aggressive interpretation of the exception to the Miranda rule, which protects the Constitutional right against involuntary self-incrimination. _ **Anthony D. Romero, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said that it would be acceptable to withhold Miranda before asking whether there were any more bombs hidden in Boston** _, but that once the F.B.I. went into broader questioning, it must not “cut corners.” So even the ACLU may be partially on board. One helpful aspect of the matter is that there is likely to be enough evidence to convict without any testimony from Tsarnaev. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/317 "2013-04-21T22:15:55Z")
On the run or in custody and thus unable to plant more devices since three days ago. Still no more explosions. Are we allowing for the possibility of bombs on eighteen-year timers? When is the reasonable person’s expiration date on taking “there could be more bombs!” as the reason to suspend civil liberties? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/318 "2013-04-21T22:32:30Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > On the run or in custody and thus unable to plant more devices since three days ago. Still no more explosions. Are we allowing for the possibility of bombs on eighteen-year timers? When is the reasonable person’s expiration date on taking “there could be more bombs!” as the reason to suspend civil liberties? I would say that as soon as we can be reasonably sure that there aren’t other bombers out there. We don’t know that these guys were working alone. Plus, the 19-year-old might still be medicated and unable to answer questions fully. At any rate, I have no problem letting the clock run longer. This guy is toast, Miranda or no Miranda. And if there are no other bombs, then the info they get from him related to other bombs will be zilch, and any info they get about non-public safety issues will not be admissible in court. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/319 "2013-04-21T22:52:57Z")
Since there have been no further incidents, or threats of incidents, I’d say as soon as he recovers enough. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799/320 "2013-04-21T23:02:18Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > On the run or in custody and thus unable to plant more devices since three days ago. Still no more explosions. Are we allowing for the possibility of bombs on eighteen-year timers? When is the reasonable person’s expiration date on taking “there could be more bombs!” as the reason to suspend civil liberties? I’m not saying I agree with their decision to use the public safety exception, but there are multiple methods of detonating IEDs without a timer, the most well-known being mobile phones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boston-marathon-bombing-debate-thread/655799.md?page=17)