# The Boy Scouts and Hypocrisy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 30, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786 "2003-12-30T16:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/121 "2004-01-02T03:33:26Z")
I’m not seeing the difference. I was dressed up funny 'cuz I was Catholic. If some kid gets beaten up for wearing a yamulke that’s not related to religion? I think it’s kind of silly to deconstruct the reasons too much. You have one group beating up another habitually for surface differences. Dave: > [@](#): > > Why can’t you just admit that you’ve never experienced descrimination or persecution anywhere close to what blacks and gays have gone through and thank your lucky stars for it? Why all this desire to claim victim statis when none exists? Get off the cross, buddy, nobody is buying it. Bite me buddy. I went from St. Cassians to Montclair High School and that was a pretty tough school. Being a white kid in that school wasn’t easy. My first year, I would have to come home and skip the rest of the day of school if I needed to use the bathroom because a white freshman was risking a lot to use a bathroom by himself. You couldn’t eat lunch either. If you got into line you’d have a couple of black upperclassmen get behind you and in front of you and hit you up for money, and they’d hurt you if you didn’t give it to them. For the first two years you had to act like a sheep and travel with a group of friends through the halls on in line, or in the locker room, because there were groups of black kids that were just looking for the opportunity to get you alone so they could take your money, twist your arm, or put your in a headlock. When I returned from College I worked in NYC and would have to commute through the port athority bus teminal, and it was the same thing all over again for higher stakes. Do not get alone. You will be mugged. I’m sorry that it was that way, but that is an accurate portrayal of what I’ve been through. If you want to know what it’s like to be the target of persecution and discrimination or violence, and you’re a white guy, take a stroll down 41st St. by yourself late some weekday night, walk through the nether regions of the Port authority bus terminal and wait for a bus. I lived like that. It’s reality. There are places and circumstances where it’s very dangerous to be a black person, where you will be a target for violence, and persecution. There are also place where it’s like that to be a white guy. I grew up in some of them. I worked in some others. Don’t tell me that I don’t know what it’s like. I do. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/122 "2004-01-02T03:48:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*What exactly is it about people falling in love with one another disturbs you so much? \*\* See my post on page one. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/123 "2004-01-02T04:00:17Z")
Pardon me for jumping into the middle of the analysis of whether the BSA, \*\*Sauron[b/]'s stepMinion, **Scylla** , and other asported suspects are homophobic, but I think some blater needs to be refuted here. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by geewhiz \* > I have known Christians who have gotten the crap kicked out of them for being Christians. Simply for being a Christian? I concede this is possible. But I suspect it’s probably much more likely that the reason was that they attempted to witness in some singularly obnoxious fashon. I don’t know this for a fact, of course, and that is no excuse for assault. But reading the rest of your posts, I can form an opinion about what “being a Christian” means in your definition. > [@](#): > > I have been verbally assaulted for being a Christian. So have I – right here, as a matter of fact. And do you know the funny thing about it? Among my foremost defenders were (1) conservative christians, (2) liberal Christians, (3) skeptical atheists and agnostics, (4) gay activists of a variety of beliefs, (5) at least one devout Jew… And I “considered the source” – who it was that was assulting me And the irritation just went away. > [@](#): > > I do not believe that gays should be assaulted for who they are. I don’t think they should be beat up, yelled out, verbally or physically abused. I don’t think they should lose housing. I don’t think they should be discriminated in a job. And if someone does any of the above, they should be dealt with. But according to your earlier post, you’re not for “gay rights” – which is it? Or do you think that people shouldn’t do the above mentioned crap, but if they do, the gay people have no rights as victims, and should just put up with it? > [@](#): > > I believe it is a choice. You choose to live that lifestyle just like being a Christian is a choice. Just the wording of this sentence demonstrates that you do not have a clue what is being talked about. And it’s been made clear that “being gay” is not “living a particular lifestyle” enough times in enough places that it’s obvious that you are intentionally refusing to accept any statement that conflicts with your bigotry. > [@](#): > > Getting back to the Boy Scouts, they are a private organization and have a right to exclude anyone they want to. You might have noticed a few of us saying exactly that, including at least one lawyer spelling it out. The entire point of this thread is the hypocrisy of the Boy Scouts claiming on one hand that they are a private group who can exclude whoever they want and on the other hand that they’re a quasi-public service group providing a special program for boys and deserving of public support for doing so. > [@](#): > > Sorry, welcome to the real world. I am Girl Scout Leader and they are more inclusive but homosexuality is not allowed to be discussed just like God is not allowed. I guarantee the girls are talking about both subjects, just not in front of you. > [@](#): > > There was alot of scoffing at the idea of Christians being persecuted. Well I find enjoyable when non Christians go around telling Christians how to act and telling them what they go through. You don’t know and you don’t get it. A big reason why you don’t hear about this sort of stuff, is because 1) it is not reported as that would show that Christians are discriminated against especially in free speech. CNN could not have that. 2) Christians don’t report it because you know when you become one, that this sort of stuff is going to happen and it is not much of a surprise (The Bible talks about it). Most people who choose to follow Jesus know that it isn’t an easy ride. Besides, alot of Christians see the reporting of this sort of thing as as sign of weakness. So give us some examples where it was reported. It’s a story I hear a lot – but never with any proof. > [@](#): > > But if Christians are so evil and opressive and horrible… I think you’ll find that nobody who is an ongoing member here regards all Christians as evil, oppressive, and horrible (nobody’s told me or **Siege** that we are, **Sauron** and **Aries28** that they are, or **tomndebb** that he is) – just a particular group, which calls itself the Religious Right (though it is not particularly either), which seems intent on legislating its opinions on what proper moral behavior is into statute law that everyone must follow. then why > [@](#): > > ) do they set up maternity homes for girls who get thrown out of their homes by their parents for being pregnant and provide girls with medical care, food, housing, clothing, training in a job. Birthright, right? I applaud what you’re doing there. (For those who don’t know, Birthright is a Pro-life group that doesn’t just try to get abortion made illegal, but rather provides practical help for pregnant girls, such as is noted in the quote. It’s probably one of the most decent elements of the whole abortion controversy.) > [@](#): > > You know, there is not a feminist organization who would support something like that. In fact I asked the feminist organization on campus that I belonged to if I could present the idea of doing a baby supplies fundraiser for the one we have in town. They said no because the facility does not support the ideals of the feminist community. There are a lot of different feminist groups around – and I would bet you that there are several which would support this sort of endeavor. It is, after all, empowering the girls to take control of their own lives. > [@](#): > > oh yeah that’s right, taking responsibility for your mistakes is a bad thing. _ **A baby is not a mistake!** _ :mad: > [@](#): > > 1. … Christian Missionaries in Africa … providing social services… > > 2. Setting up facilities for HIV patients and try to make them as comfortable as possible in thier last days when thier families and lovers leave them. > > 3. Feed. shelter and clothe the homeless… Good stuff, and praiseworthy. I have some doubts that secular help is not available – I suspect that the Christian groups weren’t willing to solicit it or accept it. (There are some groups that feel that “worldly” help “taints” their ministry.) > [@](#): > > This is the work of the “Jeesuzers”. Now you guys can call me whatever you want. You don’t know me personally. You don’t know me enough to make any crass judgments on me. I think that people who scream homophobia are narrowminding and a little senstive. When you come out with anything, there are going to be people who are going to be against you. And this is common ground for Christians and gays. You take a stand for anything you are going to get it from somebody. So stick around. Let the insults roll off your back. Trun the other cheek. Walk a second mile with some of these people, and learn about them. You’ll find a community where Christian, gay, libertarian, political conservative, and anything else you care to name can talk together and learn from each other. One word of advice: before you render one more opinion about “homosexuality,” politely and humbly ask the gay people here to explain to you why it is that they get irked at the “it’s a choice” and “gay lifestyle” lines. I guarantee you’ll learn something important and valuable, in addition to the answer to your question. > [@](#): > > …The mark of a true friendship is that someone can do something you don’t like but you can still love them. It is a real shame that most people have not experienced that. But then again, you have to give it to recieve it. \*\* Amen to that! Though IMO, it’s that you give because you **have received** , first, from the truest friend of all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/124 "2004-01-02T04:10:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **I’m not seeing the difference. I was dressed up funny 'cuz I was Catholic.** You would have been beaten up just the same if you went to a secular private school that required a dorky uniform. It is the dorkiness of your uniform, and not the fact that the uniform signified a denominational choice, that lead to your beatings. That’s why I asked if Catholic kids who attended the public school were regularly beat up. I doubt they were (unless they were dorky for some other reason). The beatings you describe do not show any kind of anti-Catholic animus on the part of your tormentors; rather, they show that dorky-looking kids tend to get beaten up (in other news: bear shits in woods, water is wet, Pope is Catholic). **Scylla** , I agree with you on most things, but here you’re just being deliberately dense. Snap out of it, frcryinoutloud. \*\* > [@](#): > > If some kid gets beaten up for wearing a yamulke that’s not related to religion?\*\* Usually when a kid gets beaten up for wearing a yarmulke, it’s not because the yarmulke looks dorky; it’s because the yarmulke is specifically identified with Judaisim. Yarmulkes simply aren’t as comical as the costume you describe. A better comparison would be the treatment of kids wearing yarmulkes and kids wearing crucifixes around their necks. I suppse that somewhere, some time, some kid may have gotten beaten up for wearing a yarmulke because a bully thought it looked dumb rather than because the bully was looking to single out Jews. But common sense and historical experience tells us that’s the lesser likely explanation of the two. On the other hand, kids in dorky private school uniforms – regardless of religious affiliation – have been beaten up since time immemorial. Here’s a quick test for you, **Scylla** : when the kids were beating you up, were they calling you a pansy or were they calling you a Papist? I’m betting the former is more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/125 "2004-01-02T04:10:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not seeing the difference. I was dressed up funny 'cuz I was Catholic. Bull fucking shit, **Scylla**. They didn’t CARE what religion you belonged to. They only cared that you looked like a dork. Please tell me you’re not this fucking stupid to believe it was because they hated Catholics. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/126 "2004-01-02T04:13:45Z")
Wait, Scylla, I’m confused. Are you suffering from descrimination and persecution because you went to a Catholic school and got beaten up for your pretty little uniform or are you suffering from descrimination and persecution because you lived and worked in a rough neighborhood? Please clarify because I’m having trouble keeping track of the bullshit you’re slinging and would hate to respond to one immaginary instance of you being the victim of racism when you were actually blathering on about how much you have in common with Joan of Arc. Thanks awfuly. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/127 "2004-01-02T04:29:22Z")
Dewey: > [@](#): > > You would have been beaten up just the same if you went to a secular private school that required a dorky uniform. It is the dorkiness of your uniform, and not the fact that the uniform signified a denominational choice, that lead to your beatings. It’s a total nonissue. You’re getting beaten up for being different. It’s not a comfort that it’s not actually directed at the tenets of the Church, but at the uniform. It didn’t matter to me then, and it doesn’t now. I knew how it felt to be thirteen years old and afraid because one group was going after me because I was a member of another. Anything beyond that is besides the point. Weirddave: > [@](#): > > Wait, Scylla, I’m confused. And yet you blame your mentaly challenged state on me. > [@](#): > > Are you suffering from descrimination and persecution because you went to a Catholic school and got beaten up for your pretty little uniform or are you suffering from descrimination and persecution because you lived and worked in a rough neighborhood? Actually, I don’t have these problems any more. So I am not “suffering” from discrimination or persecution in this regard at present. In past I suffered from both, as I describe it. I know you say you’re confused, but do you really have a problem comprehending more than one example at a time? > [@](#): > > Please clarify because I’m having trouble keeping track of the bullshit you’re slinging and would hate to respond to one immaginary instance of you being the victim of racism when you were actually blathering on about how much you have in common with Joan of Arc. Thanks awfuly. Fuck you Dave for a kneejerk prick. What kind of dimwitted dipshit can’t understand a plural? Me: This and this happened You: I’m confused. How could two things possibly happen? Which is it? What the fuck. You’re not that stupid. You’re an asshole and a fucking idiot for calling me a liar? You don’t this shit happens? You don’t think my experience is common to those growing up in multicultural areas, or people commuting from NYC? Are you seriously pretending that it doesn’t happen? Go walk through the port authority at midnight. Go be a white kid at Montclair High School, and then get back to me. Dipshit. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/128 "2004-01-02T05:03:22Z")
Hey, dickweed, you’re the one who was going on and on about being “religously persecuted” because you got beaten up in your little uniform. When nobody bought that story, you pulled from somewhere ( your ass, maybe ) this long song and dance about growing up in a tough neighborhood. Big deal. I have plenty of clients today down around North Ave. and Pensylvania Ave. I used to work as a teenage on the “wrong” side of lower Park Heights. When I was 18 I was the only white employee at a business run by black folks in a poor neighborhood. I took a wrong turn one night at about 2 AM years ago and walked right smack dab through the middle of the Murphy Homes housing projects. I have had a black man stick a sawed off shotgun in my gut and demand my wallet. There’s lots more stories like that if I felt like recounting them and through all of this, even though I have run across people who cursed me or tried to hurt or kill me simply for being white I have never felt that I was a “victim” of racism, predjudice or descrimination. You know why? Two reasons. Number one, nothing here is even close to something that could be considered _institutionalized_ racism, it’s simply random assholes. Number two, I am cursed with this little thing called a brain that gives me common sense and perspective. You ought to get some, it keeps you from making a fool of yourself with outlandish statements. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/129 "2004-01-02T05:04:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*It’s a total nonissue. You’re getting beaten up for being different. > > It’s not a comfort that it’s not actually directed at the tenets of the Church, but at the uniform. It didn’t matter to me then, and it doesn’t now. > > I knew how it felt to be thirteen years old and afraid because one group was going after me because I was a member of another. Anything beyond that is besides the point.\*\* Look, no one here is suggesting that bullying of any kind is acceptable. I don’t believe anyone here has claimed that the kids who terrorized you as a youth were justified in doing so. But you made a specific claim: that you were picked on because of your religion. You specifically said “So, until the fucking day we can make you nine years old, dress you like a leprechaun, and prance you past an inner city public school, don’t fucking talking to me about not being persecuted for my religion.” You also repeatedly play up the fact that the private school was of the Catholic persuasion. It is that claim – that you have been persecuted _because of your religion_ – that myself and others are taking issue with. That’s simply an absurd interpretation of those facts. You were bullied because of anti-dorkiness animus, not anti-Catholic animus. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/130 "2004-01-02T05:07:41Z")
Since we seem to be sharing our childhood experiences of being beat up, let me add mine. When I was a kid I was often tormented and on occasion beat up by some kids whose neighborhood I had to pass through on my way home. They didn’t beat me up because I was white or middle-class or (nominally) Presbyterian. They didn’t beat me up because I was too smart or too dumb or blue-eyed or right-handed. They beat me up because they could. They always gave some reason for their actions, but I always knew it was bullshit. They beat me up because beating kids up made them somehow feel superior, and I happened to be available. So do I get to claim persecution, and if so which flavor? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/131 "2004-01-02T05:16:58Z")
Tell us the “Grandpa” story again, **Scylla**. You know, the one where you got the reputation for being pretty tough, and how people didn’t fuck with you. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/132 "2004-01-02T05:25:49Z")
Ok my first post was incomplete in its points because I was dragged off to New Years dinner wif da family. Good times were had by all, two glasses of wine were imbibed by this particular citizen of Troy, and I’m back to complete it and expand. My first point is pretty well stated in the original post in that I feel the BSA has little to no room to dance around here anymore. They can be a private organization making their own rules that are not in violation of any federal law, fine A-Okay. I’d be upset if the government placed too strong a hand on private organizations anyway, even if I find their views offensive. The simple fact, however, of taking that stand places them on similar footing with many religious organizations who are doing wonderful work in the world _but also actively and knowingly discriminating against people without tangible cause_. That footing is a lack of government aid in all projects until such time as they cease that activity. Them’s the rules. You play the game or you go home. Secondly, I wasn’t going to get dragged into this warring over kids joining the Scouts or not but this touches somewhat close to home. As many here are aware, I am gay. I was also a Cub Scout and (briefly) a Boy Scout. I was also involved in 4-H when I was a tyke not so long ago. Would I trade those years and experiences if taken back to that point, knowing what I know now? Absolutely not. During my time in Scouting I met some very fine, knowledgable, and wise people whose words and actions I treasure to this day. My Den leader was a wonderful lady who never made us feel anything less than proud, who always had fun and enlightening activities for us to do, and whose son has turned into a rather vociferous supporter of gay rights in his circles. In short, Scouting was a blessing for me and anyone who would take their broad brush to tar those people can kiss my rainbow-painted ass. I can look back and not once see an incident of homophobic discrimination or sissyphobia from the leadership (the other scouts, as I advanced to Boy Scout, were a different issue that precipitated my leaving). If a kid wanted to join my local troop I’d tell them a big “hell yeah!” because I believe they have a better than average chance of taking away some very good life lessons and I refuse to deprive another person of that chance for an abstract stand on one singular issue _which they can still make from within said organization_. So what are you going to do? Nitpick my post? Call _me_ homophobic? Honey, nothing gets my blood racing more than the sight of two men lip-locked and Mr. Right is out there for me so go ahead and call me what you like. I’ll be down with my Gay/Straight Alliance friends at Jacob’s dancing (or at least randomly and violently moving badly upon a dance floor) my sweet lil queer Tiger Cub/Cub Scout/Boy Scout/Catholic School Boy heart out. Because I’ve got regrets from life, but being BSA ain’t never been one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/133 "2004-01-02T05:31:27Z")
Well, Dave if you’ve had a shotgun stuck into your face and don’t consider it persecution, what was it then? And I’m not sure what you mean by “instituionalized.” It seems to me that you were probably a target because of your appearance, what you looked like. Frankly, I really don’t see what seperates the experience you had of getting a shotgun in your face in a black neighborhood, and a black man being threatened by some Hicks. It looks to me like these are both incidents that have a lot to do with the victims race. Apparently you’re distinction is that whenever it happened to you, it was just “assholes.” No shit. Who do you think does these things? Nice people? The hicks that beat up the black guy aren’t assholes? What exactly seperates the opportunistic racially motivated violence you say you’ve experienced from that of a black man or a gay man in a similar situation? Dewey: > [@](#): > > But you made a specific claim: that you were picked on because of your religion. You specifically said “So, until the fucking day we can make you nine years old, dress you like a leprechaun, and prance you past an inner city public school, don’t fucking talking to me about not being persecuted for my religion.” You also repeatedly play up the fact that the private school was of the Catholic persuasion. Well, it seems to me that it’s only Catholic kids that have to wear the truly dorky outfits, and if that’s not persecution I don’t what is (facetious detector should be going off.) I suppose your correct that we could not most accurately describe this as religious persecution, as I originally did. I suppose it is sloppy of me to do so. I think the main point that persecution is persecution still stands. Dave again: Another reason for a fuck you, is this Joan of Arc, climbing on a cross thing. I’m not trying to do that. I’m trying to point out that it’s the rare person that doesn’t get persecuted at some point. Some people encounter it more frequently than others, but it’s a common experience. It is in fact these experiences that instill in me the certitude of why persecution and discrimination is wrong. It’s because I do identify with them. I think we all do. The idea that “You don’t know what it’s like,” is stupid. Most of us do know what it’s like. Most of us have experienced it. I pretty much reject the idea that being persecuted for being Gay is inherently worse than being persecuted for being black, or for being a kid in a dorky uniform. The reason why you’re getting persecuted doesn’t significantly modify the experience. Persecution is the banal mundane activity of assholes, and it doesn’t seem to have significant variance depending on the reason why it occured. By definition the reason it’s occuring is shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/134 "2004-01-02T05:40:06Z")
No, kids at PRIVATE schools wear uniforms. Not all private schools are Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/135 "2004-01-02T05:43:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Tell us the “Grandpa” story again, **Scylla**. You know, the one where you got the reputation for being pretty tough, and how people didn’t fuck with you. \*\* Sure. That’s because I lived my entire childhood in a single setting. Every year was the same as every other year. If you’re going to be a dick and bring these things up, it behooves you to actually recall the specifics of the story, wherein I specifically give mention to differing periods. The context where I was fairly tough was as as a grade schooler, and also within the confines of St. Cassians which I attended for one year, in the 8th grade. As I mention in that story you bring up, things changed when I went to High School. So if you actually go back and read the story again, you will see that is consistent. Doubtless your confusion is because you are just really really stupid and you assume that if somebody says something in one context than it must apply in all contexts, even if that person says otherwise. Having read that story you are probably under the simplistic notion that my entire childhood consisted of a single scene. Why you would do this, is because you must be stupid as I describe several scenes from my childhood in that one story. It may surprise you to learn that things were different when I was in the second grade than when I was in 11th. Perhaps one day I will post about kindergarten and tell how I had no interest in girls. You will doubtless absorb this in some single cellular brain function, and if later I mention that I am married you will spring forth and say “AHA! You are a liar. You posted in your kindergarten story that you didn’t like girls!” But really, you’re just being a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/136 "2004-01-02T06:01:08Z")
I find myself agreeing with Scylla here. Quitting Boy Scouts over the antics of some guys on a “high council” which has almost no effect on my own troop would seem very foolish. I doubt anyone would have been excluded from my troop for being gay or non-religious. I was agnostic, myself. Presumably, nobody who is attacking members of the Boy Scouts has ever helped the Democratic party, or voted for Clinton, because of the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Having said that, I am not currently supporting Boy Scouts at all, because of the exclusionary policies of the higher ups. If I had kids, and they wanted to join Boy Scouts, I would let them, as long as I knew the particular troop to be a good one. And I would vigorously defend them from any monster who tried to attack them for being a Boy Scout. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/137 "2004-01-02T06:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > If you’re going to be a dick and bring these things up, it behooves you to actually recall the specifics of the story, wherein I specifically give mention to **differing periods**. Perhaps you can point out the mention of differing periods in the [post I was referring to](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4379437&highlight=grandpa#post4379437). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > This is a stupid way to wage a war. We have been attacked. We need to destroy our enemies so that they are no longer a threat. > > My Grandfather was a NYC police chief, and a bit of a monster badass. He taught me how to fight really well and do serious damage long before I was responsible enough to have this knowledge. There was this guy named Irv, who I hated and who hated me. The roots of our conflict lay in the fact that brother had a hare lip and looked disfigured before it was corrected. (Now he just has a cool looking scar.) Irv was a teaser, and he gave my brother a very hard time. When he did it in front of me, I beat the shit out of him. He and I were 8, my brother was 4. > > So Irv gathered his resources and he and a few of his friends started teasing me in front of other people and always in groups. Being the object of teasing by a relatively popular kid (as Irv was,) was a recipe to get more teasing. The group against me grew. It was pretty stupid to be on my side, since I was pretty much by myself. > > It finally came to a head outside, during recess. Irv’s inner circle surrounded me and taunted me. Besides the inner circle of seven or eight kids and Irv, most of the rest of the rest of the class was there and they knew which way the wind was blowing, so they clearly weren’t on my side. They were against me the way a crowd was against people, looking to see them cry or get beaten up. > > Now the funny thin is, I actually believed the things my Granfather taught me. You just had to, if you knew him. He told me you can’t fight a crowd. You can’t fight more than one person. You will lose. In such a situation you should go after the leader and not let go no matter what else happened until he was out of commission. Then, pick the next biggest one, until he’s done. > > “You’re not gonna win,” my Grandather told me. “But it’s the only thing you can do to make them think twice next time. Otherwise they will just attack you from behind and keep switching your attention around until they wear you down. Focus on one person at a time and make them pay for what is happening so they will remember.” > > He also taught me the rule of escalation. Most fights start slowly and build. There’s a warming up period. Grandpa’s advice is to ignore this. You don’t yell, push or shove as a buildup. Your first attack should be an all out one, and you should start it as soon as you know there is going to be a fight. > > So when the pushing and shoving started against me, I ignored my attackers and focussed on the ringleader, Irv. He was the provoker, and though he hadn’t thrown a punch, I went straight after him and beat him bloody broke his finger deliberately and bloodied my knuckles on his face as quickly as I could. I was trying to kill him (which is what I mean when I say I wasn’t ready for the knowledge Grandpa had imparted me.) As it was happening, I got my ass-kicked, and then I got pulled off of Irv and got my ass-kicked even worse. I lost teeth. I tried to focus on one person, but all my strength was gone. I was exhausted and hurt. I got held while another person punched me. Grandpa was right, I wasn’t gonna win. > > But a funny thing came out of this. Irv was crying, I wasn’t. The story got told like I won the fight against ten people (and I surely didn’t.) **I got a reputation for being pretty tough, and people didn’t fuck with me.** > > You went off topic too, so I guess I’m allowed. The point of this though is that Saddam is Irv. He was the guy front and center in this conflict. If we let him survive we’re anybody’s bitch. He is an example. > > As an aside, I suppose it’s appropriate to mention that there’s an afterward to my story. I became the school bully, all the while beleiving I was on the side of right. I suppose that moral is what you are so afraid of with the current Mideast situation. > > There’s a line between being a bully who will attack wantonly at the slightest provocation and standing up for yourself. It doesn’t have to be crossed. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/138 "2004-01-02T06:16:36Z")
“He and I were 8, my brother was 4.” My guess is it didn’t happen in high school (unless Scylla skipped a lot of grades). ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/139 "2004-01-02T06:34:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nightime \* > \*\*“He and I were 8, my brother was 4.” > My guess is it didn’t happen in high school (unless Scylla skipped a lot of grades). \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **"So, until the fucking day we can make you nine years old, dress you like a leprechaun, and prance you past an inner city public school, don’t fucking talking to me about not being persecuted for my religion.** ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786/140 "2004-01-02T06:43:20Z")
Have you considered that a reputation at his own private school would hardly be well known by the inner city public school? And even in the highly unlikely case that it was, being known as the “private catholic school tough guy” would probably make him _more_ likely to be a target there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-and-hypocrisy/221786.md?page=8)