# The Boy Scouts Still Thinking of the Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549 "2012-07-17T18:25:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/161 "2012-07-19T18:21:12Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > You are intentionally simplifying the issue It’s a simple issue. One of the simplest. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/162 "2012-07-19T18:34:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How likely would that scenario be, considering the lessons the applicant learned at an early age about the necessities of lying about his sexual orientation to people in a position of power? We’ve already established that the Scouts offer an awful lot to kids. Lets go a little further and expect that 10% of the children will end up developing ‘teh gay’. (Yes, I’m being obtuse here). If there is no other organization that provides what Scouting does, and as a concerned parent, I want to assist those kids…at what point do I tell them: Sorry, you can’t be here, you’re too swishy? OR Do you make the kids aware of this patently stupid policy, and move on to the other beneficial things? PLUS, If I stand up and bang the drum and criticize the leadership _and am asked to leave for doing so_, how am I helping the kids by being anything other than a two week soundbite? I can stay, and assist by example, or I can protest and be showed out. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/163 "2012-07-19T18:39:36Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I understand - I am not saying it is perfect, but on this forum I thought I would be honest. Kicking a kid out because he is questioning his faith to me is MORE wrong. I certainly don’t disagree with that, but I’m not sure I agree that the fact that you have to deal with someone who’s willing to commit a larger immoral act excuses you for committing a smaller immoral act. (Barring extreme circumstances like being physically assaulted, disowned by parents, loss of employment, and so forth.) The guy who wants to throw the atheist scout out of the organization is a bad guy. A Scout shouldn’t just be a less bad guy - he should be a good guy. Particularly an Eagle Scout. If it’s okay to lie about major personal beliefs in order to make Eagle, doesn’t that diminish the whole point of being an Eagle Scout? If you’re willing to lie to make Eagle, shouldn’t that fact alone be a bar to being an Eagle Scout, even (or, perhaps, especially) if he’s lying about something that shouldn’t be an issue in the first place? > [@](#): > > The nuance and deeper conversation I have with the boys is difficult for me to write out here. These are usually much longer conversations that I have, and they occur because the boys know that they can tell me these things without being judged. I respect that I’m only getting a tiny piece of the relationship you have with your Scouts, and I don’t mean to give you a hard time over this. I am, however, a little concerned that you might be doing some of your scouts a disservice, if you’re counseling them to lie about their sexuality for personal advancement. Visibility is central both to the success of the gay rights movement as a whole, and to the individual happiness of gay people. While I certainly wouldn’t suggest that a teenager or pre-teen has a responsibility to be open about their sexuality, you are, explicitly, training them how to be moral and ethical adults. As such, telling them that it’s okay to lie about their sexuality in a context where they aren’t in some sort of immediate physical danger or enormous financial difficulty is a very poor lesson. Of course, simply not mentioning it is a different matter. If the review board doesn’t ask about an applicant’s sexuality, I don’t see a reason they should volunteer it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/164 "2012-07-19T18:42:05Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > PLUS, If I stand up and bang the drum and criticize the leadership _and am asked to leave for doing so_, how am I helping the kids by being anything other than a two week soundbite? I can stay, and assist by example, or I can protest and be showed out. I think you’re an example in both situations. The question is, are you a good example, or a bad example? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/165 "2012-07-19T18:55:37Z")
Serious question: Should a 12yr old, from your troop, hang himself, for beginning to identify as gay, (perhaps you’ve even spoken openly of your own personal pro gay stance to him!), in a confusing and polarized world, would you feel any differently about your willingness to participate in the organization? I should think it would leave me shattered. Have you ever considered such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/166 "2012-07-19T19:01:32Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > You’re kidding, right? I was addressing the comment about the statue _on top of the temple_. You do recall that’s where he said it was in the post I initially quoted, do you not? > [@](#): > > He admitted when he mentioned the statue that he wasn’t certain of the location of the statue or the person depicted, but that the statue is ironically saluting the bank with its back to the temple. Looked like he was saying that he didn’t recall who it was on top of the temple, not where it was. On top of the temple is a pretty non-general location. > [@](#): > > And your statement about the statue predating the bank is rubbish. The bank has been around since 1873. The temple was completed 20 years later, but I’m not sure at what phase of construction Moroni was installed. The statue of Brigham “There stands old Brigham up on his perch, with his face toward the bank and his ass toward the church” Young was put there 24 years after he founded the bank. [/tangent] Thanks. Hopefully we’re both clear on this tangent now. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/167 "2012-07-19T19:05:01Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/168 "2012-07-19T19:24:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Looked like he was saying that he didn’t recall who it was on top of the temple, not where it was. On top of the temple is a pretty non-general location. No problem. Lots of people have difficulty reading. So, what do you think about BSA’s policies regarding gay and atheist scouts and volunteers? ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/169 "2012-07-19T19:25:15Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > This is an absurd comparison. No, the comparison is not absurd. The bigotry of both organizations is disgusting and completely indefensible. In fact, the bigotry displayed by the Scouts may be worse than that of the Klan. To have an organization that exists, as you claim, “to develop boys into men” be so openly and disgustingly bigoted is to not only embrace that bigotry, but to claim that it is a worthy ideal. You can attempt to wash you hands of it by saying that you don’t support the bigotry and refuse to apply an ideological purity test to the groups you support, but you are not making yourself out any better for it. This is not some quibble about what level of taxation is proper, or how much society should support the arts, or the like. This is an issue of basic human dignity and worth. That is, or ought to be, a bright line issue, especially when it comes to an organization that you look to to develop and impart wisdom to children. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/170 "2012-07-19T19:29:10Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > In fact, the bigotry displayed by the Scouts may be worse than that of the Klan. This is an absurd comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/171 "2012-07-19T19:38:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I certainly don’t disagree with that, but I’m not sure I agree that the fact that you have to deal with someone who’s willing to commit a larger immoral act excuses you for committing a smaller immoral act. (Barring extreme circumstances like being physically assaulted, disowned by parents, loss of employment, and so forth.) The guy who wants to throw the atheist scout out of the organization is a bad guy. A Scout shouldn’t just be a less bad guy - he should be a good guy. Particularly an Eagle Scout. If it’s okay to lie about major personal beliefs in order to make Eagle, doesn’t that diminish the whole point of being an Eagle Scout? If you’re willing to lie to make Eagle, shouldn’t that fact alone be a bar to being an Eagle Scout, even (or, perhaps, especially) if he’s lying about something that shouldn’t be an issue in the first place? > > I respect that I’m only getting a tiny piece of the relationship you have with your Scouts, and I don’t mean to give you a hard time over this. I am, however, a little concerned that you might be doing some of your scouts a disservice, if you’re counseling them to lie about their sexuality for personal advancement. Visibility is central both to the success of the gay rights movement as a whole, and to the individual happiness of gay people. While I certainly wouldn’t suggest that a teenager or pre-teen has a responsibility to be open about their sexuality, you are, explicitly, training them how to be moral and ethical adults. As such, telling them that it’s okay to lie about their sexuality in a context where they aren’t in some sort of immediate physical danger or enormous financial difficulty is a very poor lesson. > > Of course, simply not mentioning it is a different matter. If the review board doesn’t ask about an applicant’s sexuality, I don’t see a reason they should volunteer it. Ah - I haven’t been in a situation where sexuality was the issue, it has only been those boys who need an answer to the question “how do you practice the Law of Reverent.” I have never had a boy come out to me. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/172 "2012-07-19T19:43:48Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Serious question: > > Should a 12yr old, from your troop, hang himself, for beginning to identify as gay, (perhaps you’ve even spoken openly of your own personal pro gay stance to him!), in a confusing and polarized world, would you feel any differently about your willingness to participate in the organization? > > I should think it would leave me shattered. Have you ever considered such a thing? I have not considered it, and I have been fortunate so far not to have to deal with suicide within my unit for whatever reason. It would hurt far worse if the boy had never had the knowledge that I am not anti-gay. If a boy killed himself, and part of the reason was that he thought that I would look down on him for his sexuality - THAT is what would hurt. However, if I left the BSA due to this and then a boy killed himself from my old Troop - I would wonder if I would have made a difference if I had been around instead of quitting. This is why I stay - to be another voice. Interesting post from George Takei today on this subject: > **[Sing Out Louise Productions | Coming Soon](https://singoutlouise.broadway/allegiance)** > [@](#): > > the Scouts released a statement yesterday reaffirming its ban on gay scouts and LGBT leaders. The statement indicated that their committee met in secret and unanimously voted to uphold the ban. > > Hogwash. My sources, including ones close to the leadership at the BSA, inform me that this “vote” actually took place in 2010 and that the “announcement” is merely recycled news. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/173 "2012-07-19T19:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I have never had a boy come out to me. As close as they must be, with their scout leaders, especially kids from homes of divorce, etc, it’s a shame to think they probably just don’t feel they can. > [@](#): > > However, if I left the BSA due to this and then a boy killed himself from my old Troop - I would wonder if I would have made a difference if I had been around instead of quitting. > > This is why I stay - to be another voice. This is an excellent point, and a great way to look at it! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/174 "2012-07-19T19:54:41Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I have not considered it, and I have been fortunate so far not to have to deal with suicide within my unit for whatever reason. If such a child faced expulsion, how far would you go to support his fight to stay in? ---
**Author:** ![ScarletNumber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@ScarletNumber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScarletNumber)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/175 "2012-07-19T20:19:42Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > As is you using gay as a slur. That is something I don’t allow in my Troop, Pack or family. Well you just used it as a slur. At least I’m not a hypocrite about it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/176 "2012-07-19T20:23:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is a tough call. I was a Boy Scout in the 60s. Never made Eagle, but I was Order of the Arrow and Sr Patrol Leader of our Troop. I loved camping and the outdoors in general, and had a great time in the Scouts. Back then, of course, the issue of being gay never came up. There were no such things as “Gay Rights”. I was in at the same time. I think it never came up back then because if someone came out, being kicked out of the Scouts would be the least of their problems. The scouts were mainstream then, today they are more like the last segregated lunch counter in town. > [@](#): > > Times change, and some organizations are going to change more quickly than others. What to do? My sense is that it’s still better to stay and try and change the system from within. I wouldn’t want to give up the Scouts and hand the whole organization over to the anti-gay crowd, which is exactly what would happen if all the tolerant people up and left. > > Alternatively, someone needs to take leadership and form a gay-tolerant organization like the Scouts that teaches valuable life skills without the bigotry. Any one see that on the horizon? Or maybe it’s already been brought up-- I admit I’m late to the game here and have not read the entire thread. If they became clearly an organization consisting only of Mormons and other religious bigots, the problem might become obvious enough for them to lose the support of governments and good organizations, and perhaps some parallel organizations for boys would emerge. So I agree. Perhaps the leadership would do something. If the Mormons have their way by threatening to pull out, why shouldn’t the tolerant try the same tack? ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/177 "2012-07-19T20:28:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A Scout shouldn’t just be a less bad guy - he should be a good guy. Particularly an Eagle Scout. If it’s okay to lie about major personal beliefs in order to make Eagle, doesn’t that diminish the whole point of being an Eagle Scout? (I’m not sure if it’s clear or not, but this is giving me a lot of food for thought.) I think at the point in time the scout approaches the committee, you should already have had the following conversation: “It’s important to note that you are not a badge or medal. If you tell these people that you’re gay, you may not get a badge, but that doesn’t make me less proud of you. You’ve earned the rank, even if they arbitrarily withhold the chunk of ribbon, metal, and wallet card.” Do you have a blood test at 6 to determine if the boy is gay? Do you line them up each year with the Sorting Hat and say “Bzzt, too gay, you’re out”. I don’t think anybody on this thread, on either side, doesn’t think it’s hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/178 "2012-07-19T20:33:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If such a child faced expulsion, how far would you go to support his fight to stay in? If the BSA removes someone from the list, nothing I can do about it. I would still welcome the boy to attend every event, every meeting, etc. However - the boy would never be able to “officially” be a Scout. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/179 "2012-07-19T20:35:54Z")
> [@ScarletNumber](#): > > Well you just used it as a slur. At least I’m not a hypocrite about it. Did I misunderstand you? Were you insulting the BSA, making a statement of fact, or complimenting them when you said Scouting was gay? Because in just about every other time I have heard someone call someone or something gay - it has been meant as an insult. Care to clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549/180 "2012-07-19T20:44:22Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > Do you have a blood test at 6 to determine if the boy is gay? Do you line them up each year with the Sorting Hat and say “Bzzt, too gay, you’re out”. I don’t think anybody on this thread, on either side, doesn’t think it’s hypocritical. I have no idea what you’re trying to say, here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-boy-scouts-still-thinking-of-the-children/628549.md?page=10)