# The Brain. Are atheists a bunch of ignorant people?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 10, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451 "2004-07-10T17:18:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/1 "2004-07-10T17:18:45Z")
Actually, I wanted to title this post: **Are theists (God believers) a bunch of arrogant people?**, but I wasn’t sure which one was more insulting, being ignorant or being arrogant.
As a non-believer, you can be “judged” (at least by the theists) that you do not understand or you are incapable of feeling the supernatural. You are only using your brain and logic, rather than using your “essence” (your heart?). The theist believes that he/she **can** perceive an intelligent entity (beyond matter, energy, space and time) that created the universe some 13 billion years ago or created the human beings some 10 thousand years ago – call it Big Bang or Adam and Eve or whatever. Some non-religious theists call it “The Force”. Consequently, the theist believes that the atheist is ignorant of “The Force” behind humanoid existence and the creative intelligence behind the observable and non-observable Cosmos and universe. Now isn’t that arrogant that the theist “thinks” that he/she is **capable** of doing something that an atheist is **incapable**?
The question is: What instrument does a theist use to come up with the concept of “the Force”. Of course, the theist’s immediate answer is that “I don’t have to justify the existence of The Force. It simply is there.”
The purpose of this post is to show that the arrogant statement “It simply is there” is created in the human Brain, just as the ignorant conclusion “There is no such a thing as God” is also reached through the logical and scientific research conducted by human Brains.
The truth is that we humanoids in year 2004 know very little about the workings of the Brain. Beyond Einstein’s GR of 1915, the best we’ve come up with so far is the String Theory, the Quantum Physics and the Friedman’s equations. As Ray Kurzwell points in his book “The age of Spiritual Machines”, we have a long way to go to “understand” the human Brain and relate its role in discovering the workings and origins of the universe.
---
### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/2 "2004-07-10T17:24:37Z")
Thanks for helping out by telling theists what we believe. Prior to this I’d thought that athiests _did_ experience the supernatural every time they fell in love, embraced children or watched a sunset.
Apparently I don’t know my own mind. No doubt you have an explanation for that.
---
### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/3 "2004-07-10T17:31:47Z")
I think it’s a bad idea to categorize how all atheists or theists think. There are people who are atheists for irrational reasons and well thought out reasons; no doubt the same goes for theists.
Personally, I am an agnostic. I would like to think there is/are god(s), but I don’t have enough direct evidence to find one particular faith compelling. Where does that leave me, in your equation?
---
### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/4 "2004-07-10T17:35:05Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#):
>
> Personally, I am an agnostic. I would like to think there is/are god(s), but I don’t have enough direct evidence to find one particular faith compelling. Where does that leave me, in your equation?
Currently, my Brain points to the “fact” that you are neither ignorant nor arrogant.
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/5 "2004-07-10T17:49:25Z")
What force?
---
### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/6 "2004-07-10T17:51:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> What force?
The Force that binds everything together. The rocks… the trees… the ship.
No, wait, that’s something else.
---
### Author:  [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/7 "2004-07-10T17:54:51Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> Thanks for helping out by telling theists what we believe. Prior to this I’d thought that athiests _did_ experience the supernatural every time they fell in love, embraced children or watched a sunset.
No, that’s just chemistry.
---
### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/8 "2004-07-10T18:14:10Z")
> [@Mr2001](#):
>
> No, that’s just chemistry.
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. :-p
---
### Author:  [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/9 "2004-07-10T18:18:16Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> The Force that binds everything together. The rocks… the trees… the ship.
and me and you and a dog named Blue…
---
### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/10 "2004-07-10T19:28:00Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> What force?
Apparently religious theists believe in “God” or “Allah”, etc. as “The creator”.
Some non-religious theists “believe” in the Bing Bang theory, but they question “What/Who caused the Big Bang at the first place?” Their mind (Brain) is boggled by some of the universal laws that have been discovered by Physicists, Chemists and Biologists to-date. So they call the “supernatural intelligence” that caused the Big Bang and its subsequent elegant laws “The Force”.
Of course, the scientists to-date have no “provable” answer as to exactly what entity caused the Big Bang, some 13 billion years ago out of apparently “nothing”. And that is where the “Creation Scientists” gotch ya.
It is impossible to persuade the Creationists that:
1. We humanoids and our brains are in very early stages of evolution in the 21st century. It can be said that our total discoveries on earth and in universe, and our “understanding” of the workings of the brain to-date, is very small compared to what we will know in year 2,000,004. In short, we have a long way to go to be able to comprehend “The Force”, if any, and if comprehendible at all by limitations of a single human brain.
2. There are no easy and simple answers such as “God knows” to a simple question “Why are we here?”. Probably the best answer currently is “because we are simply not there yet” !
---
### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/11 "2004-07-10T19:37:36Z")
[QUOTE=Wake up call(Brain) [/quote]
Who is this Brain and when can I meet him?
> [@](#):
>
> It is impossible to persuade the Creationists that:
This should be fun.
> [@](#):
>
> We humanoids and our brains are in very early stages of evolution
How can we be at an early stage, if we don’t know what the end stage looks like? We may go extinct in 50 years, in which case we are at the apex of our evolutionary development.
And your use of the term “humanoid” is as stupid as your use of the term “Brain”
> [@](#):
>
> It can be said that our total discoveries on earth and in universe, and our “understanding” of the workings of the brain to-date, is very small compared to what we will know in year 2,000,004.
Or we could all be dead and know nothing. _shrugs_
> [@](#):
>
> In short, we have a long way to go to be able to comprehend “The Force”, if any, and if comprehendible at all by limitations of a single human brain.
And this is “impossible” to convince a “creationist” of because…?
> [@](#):
>
> There are no easy and simple answers such as “God knows” to a simple question “Why are we here?”. Probably the best answer currently is “because we are simply not there yet” !
Where is there?
---
### Author:  [@Nim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nim)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/12 "2004-07-10T19:48:54Z")
> [@Wake up call](#):
>
> The purpose of this post is to show that the arrogant statement “It simply is there” is created in the human Brain, just as the ignorant conclusion “There is no such a thing as God” is also reached through the logical and scientific research conducted by human Brains.
Is it ignorant to believe that there is no such thing as a billion gods, or just one? Is it ignorant to believe that there is no such thing as a god who created penguins in his own image, or just one that created us in his own image? Is it ignorant to believe that there is no such thing as a hell that you will go to if you don’t do jumping jacks everyday, or just one that you will go to if you have anal sex?
---
### Author:  [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/13 "2004-07-10T19:52:07Z")
> [@Wake up call](#):
>
> Some non-religious theists call it “The Force”.
I’m not quite sure what you want to debate, so I thought I’d just slip in that “nonreligious theist” is an oxymoron.
---
### Author:  [@Nim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nim)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/14 "2004-07-10T20:03:40Z")
To be a theist, you just have to believe that there is a god. I know quite a few people that don’t have a religion but believe that there is a god.
---
### Author:  [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/15 "2004-07-10T20:03:52Z")
> [@Priceguy](#):
>
> I’m not quite sure what you want to debate, so I thought I’d just slip in that “nonreligious theist” is an oxymoron.
Not necessarily.
[Dictionary online](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religious) defines “religious” as:
> [@](#):
>
> **Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.**
> Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
> Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.
(emphasis mine)
and “theist” as:
> [@](#):
>
> Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.
So if you believe in God, but you do not revere Him, you’re an nonreligious theist.
A more colloquial understanding of the term is also someone who believes in God, but does not subscribe to a system of belief or worship him.
---
### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/16 "2004-07-10T20:08:48Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> This should be fun.
> How can we be at an early stage, if we don’t know what the end stage looks like?
>
> Where is there?
Different people have different answers to the question “what the end stage looks like” and “Where is there”.
IMHO, the answer looks something like this:
Assuming that we do not blow ourselves up through some “born again” Armageddon scenario, accelerated environmental degradation, or being hit by a giant comet before we have means to divert its path, then it is safe to say that we will continue on our evolutionary path through thousands and millions of years to come.
Since the Sun will eventually die in a few billion years (like all stars do), the planet earth will not be able to sustain life as we know it today in about a billion years or two from now.
Being adaptable, human beings will change in looks and abilities to adjust and eventually flee the dying sun and the planet earth. On the way there, we may have to come up with new ways of comprehension beyond the limited capability of our current individual human brain.
So, where is “THERE”?
IMHO, “THERE” is where we’ll reach a point when we can explain what/who created “God” or “The Force” at the first place. My hunch is that we’ll find, at the end, that the concept of “God” or “the Force” was purely a figment of human imagination. Unfortunately, I cannot prove that today because we still cannot explain exactly how the human brain goes about “imagining things”.
---
### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/17 "2004-07-10T20:16:26Z")
> [@Wake up call](#):
>
> My hunch is that we’ll find, at the end, that the concept of “God” or “the Force” was purely a figment of human imagination.
So is freedom. What is your point?
---
### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/18 "2004-07-10T21:04:59Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> So is freedom. What is your point?
**Zagadka** , you continue to pose new questions without addressing my answers to your previous questions. Do I take it that the answers I provided to-date were satisfactory? If they were, then please go back to the OP and see exactly what the point of OP is. It clearly states the purpose of the post. You either agree or disagree. If you disagree, please state your position and clearly point to the fallacies in my argument, hopefully using some credible references and cites.
Now to your current question.
First of all, there were three sentences in the paragraph you took the phrase, out of context.
Second, I prefaced that paragraph with IMHO, and further said that it was a “hunch”.
And finally, “freedom” was not invented by human brain, and is not a figment of our imagination, unless you want to get into philosophy or digging deep into definitions. Remember, the lions and tigers have been free in the jungles long before human beings could even begin to spell the word “freedom”. Further, I believe a certain amount of research has been done at UCLA’s Brain Research Institute and a cognitive research center in Vancouver on psychoneurophysiology of prisoners during and after prison. I do not believe they concluded that “freedom was a figment of human imagination”. So, what is your point, if any, and how does it relate to the OP?
---
### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/19 "2004-07-10T21:11:50Z")
> [@Wake up call](#):
>
> **Zagadka** , you continue to pose new questions without addressing my answers to your previous questions. Do I take it that the answers I provided to-date were satisfactory? If they were, then please go back to the OP and see exactly what the point of OP is. It clearly states the purpose of the post. You either agree or disagree. If you disagree, please state your position and clearly point to the fallacies in my argument, hopefully using some credible references and cites.
I disagree that your OP “clearly states the purpose of the post”.
I suppose it is best narrowed down to, “the truth is that we humanoids in year 2004 know very little about the workings of the Brain.”
I asked you who this Brain is, I’d like to meet him.
Assuming you meant brain, however, I agree, we don’t know how the brain works at all. This is a position that helps neither theist nor atheist.
> [@](#):
>
> And finally, “freedom” was not invented by human brain, and is not a figment of our imagination, unless you want to get into philosophy or digging deep into definitions. Remember, the lions and tigers have been free in the jungles long before human beings could even begin to spell the word “freedom”.
They are not free. They have to eat, and they live in a social structure that rather constrains them to a specific hunting area.
> [@](#):
>
> So, what is your point, if any, and how does it relate to the OP?
Something being a “figment of the imagination” is not as clear cut as it seems at first. There are many planes of existence, most of which are not physical.
---
### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451/20 "2004-07-10T23:47:26Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> Assuming you meant brain, however, I agree, we don’t know how the brain works at all. This is a position that helps neither theist nor atheist.
OK. Since we found something to agree on, what are we going to do to help the theists and the atheists? As you know, most of the brain research funds in the US are used to find cure for [brain malfunctions and diseases](http://health.nih.gov/search.asp/3) as opposed to the neuroscience involved in learning, creativity, imagination, fear (and sometimes the shear stupidity) of healthy individuals. How do we address, find a cure for shear arrogance in some individuals that may think “It was God who told them to invade Iraq?”.
Since the motto of this message board is “fighting ignorance”, and since ignorance (or lack thereof) is apparently located in an individual’s brain, I thought concentrating on the brain itself was appropriate, hence the OP’s opening word.
> [@](#):
>
> There are many planes of existence, most of which are not physical.
Are you referring to the electromagnetic spectrum, Shirly McLain’s reincarnation, telepathy, or the Yogi/Zen/Sufism and Maharashi’s “Higher Levels of Consciousness” where “West meets East”?!!
If yes, isn’t their perception (real or imaginary) made or created in the individual’s brain?
If no, please provide some credible cites to support your statement.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brain-are-atheists-a-bunch-of-ignorant-people/254451.md?page=2)