# The bravery of criminals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574 "2009-06-03T13:55:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/21 "2009-06-03T16:55:57Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Sure it’s a virtue. It’s used by criminals for nefarious ends, but if a soldier is fearless of physical danger in the course of mission, it’s certainly a virtue. > > Then again, it probably is a failing for criminal in commission of a crime, for otherwise, he probably wouldn’t committing said crime. Criminals are not always in pursuit of nefarious ends. Rosa Parks was a criminal and was courageous, for example. A soldier being fearless of physical danger in the course of a mission is not always virtuous if the mission itself is abhorrent. SS men could exhibit courage in suppressign the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, for example, but their actions sure as hell weren’t virtuous. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/22 "2009-06-03T17:17:03Z")
I’m sorry I didn’t make the mission parameters more clear, but I think you get what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/23 "2009-06-03T17:25:59Z")
Putting your life in danger to save another is brave, doing something dangerous because you can is just stupid. I’m sick and tired of hearing about the courage of people dog sledding across Greenland or crossing the Atlantic in a row boat and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/24 "2009-06-03T17:30:16Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’m sorry I didn’t make the mission parameters more clear, but I think you get what I was saying. Yes - while I was following up to you, my point was more general. It’s possible to be courageous in pursuit of undesirable ends, and criminal in pursuit of noble ones. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/25 "2009-06-03T17:50:35Z")
Ah. I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/26 "2009-06-03T19:21:38Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I agree with most of what’s been said here, namely, that it takes some amount of nerve or derring-do, or whatever you want to call it, to perform a morally cowardly act. It’s not moral cowardice if you think your cause is righteous. The hijackers were the opposite of moral cowards. They chose to die for what they believed was morally right. Moral cowardice is NOT being willing to stand up for what you say you believe. Chickenhawks who preach the necessity of sacrificing lives and treasure for given war, but who aren’t willing to sacrifice anything themselves, for intance, are moral cowards. > [@](#): > > However, I do not, and never will, believe that stabbing unarmed stewardesses (or stewards) is particularly courageous. In fact, that seems pretty damn cowardly to me. So is bombing toddlers with cruise missiles. Our perceptions of what is a grim necessity and what is “cowardice,” depends entirely on whose ox is being gored. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/27 "2009-06-03T20:00:04Z")
One thing to keep in mind is that people who commit certain kinds of criminal acts simply do not evaluate risks in the same way ordinary people do. They likely misperceive their likelihood of getting injured or caught, so they are more willing to commit a dangerous act. This sort of cognitive bias should probably not be confused with bravery. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/28 "2009-06-03T21:13:51Z")
Couldn’t you say that a lot of firefighters, law enforcement and military personel are just as likely to to misjudge those kinds of dangers? A lot of them are thrill seekers too. We don’t try to undercut _their_ bravery. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/29 "2009-06-03T21:25:46Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > One thing to keep in mind is that people who commit certain kinds of criminal acts simply do not evaluate risks in the same way ordinary people do. They likely misperceive their likelihood of getting injured or caught, so they are more willing to commit a dangerous act. This sort of cognitive bias should probably not be confused with bravery. Beat me to it. Poor impulse control overlaps with diminished ability to imagine negative outcomes overlaps with faulty risk-reward calculator overlaps with sociopathic lack of concern for the probable negative reactions of others, such that I think a lot of criminals are best described not as brave (or cowardly) but just risk-prone, short-term thinkers. For instance, half the households in the U.S. have guns. At some level, you’d have to be either an idiot or an absolute titan of heroism to contemplate a violent or property crime – every month the NRA magazine publishes a dozen or so “Armed Citizen” write-ups in which some dumbass attacks a homeowner and gets his head blown off. But I think you’d be wrong to think of the dumbass as “courageous.” He just never really imagined that outcome could happen to him, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/30 "2009-06-03T21:34:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Couldn’t you say that a lot of firefighters, law enforcement and military personel are just as likely to to misjudge those kinds of dangers? A lot of them are thrill seekers too. We don’t try to undercut _their_ bravery. We don’t undercut their bravery because many of them end up dead. People with unconventional risk assessment can range from, say, Audie Murphy-types to Abu Ghraib rapists. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/31 "2009-06-03T21:36:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, because degree of risk alone doesn’t determine courage or cowardice. Courage as a virtue means not being deterred by personal fear from taking some otherwise unavoidable risk. Taking an avoidable risk isn’t courageous; it’s stupid. Sending troops in where cruise missiles would do as well or better is taking an avoidable risk, therefore stupid. Hi Mr. **Shodan** , We said about the same thing in our adjoining posts, but I’ve given this a bit more thought and am moving toward Maher’s/\*\*Dio’\*\*s position. If we’re just talking hot, lethal soldier-on-soldier action then there’s nothing cowardly about killing people in the safest manner possible. But, if the missile kills more non-combatants than an fire-fight would, then a good argument could be made that using the missile is an act of cowardice. There are extenuating circumstances that would make me judge this on a case-by-case basis. Who’s the aggressor? How much willing support is the civilian population lending the aggressive army? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/32 "2009-06-03T21:39:02Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > We don’t undercut their bravery because many of them end up dead. So do many criminls. How is that a criterion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/33 "2009-06-03T23:55:36Z")
I think that Bill Maher’s error was in forgetting that these were apparently the sorts of fanatics who think they are going to paradise when they die. It’s not bravery to sacrifice your life when you are foolish or crazy enough to think you are sacrificing nothing. Courage requires that you first acknowledge that there is actually danger to be brave in the face of; the guy who fearlessly charges a machinegun nest because he is absolutely convinced that magic spells protect him is a fool or lunatic. So to the extent they actually bought into that they were foolhardy, not courageous. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/34 "2009-06-04T00:43:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, because degree of risk alone doesn’t determine courage or cowardice. Courage as a virtue means not being deterred by personal fear from taking some otherwise unavoidable risk. Taking an avoidable risk isn’t courageous; it’s stupid. So Gandhi and his marchers were stupid? Martin Luther King, Jr. and all those other marchers were stupid? The Apollo astronauts were stupid? All of the people who volunteered to join the US military are stupid? The firefighters and police and others who rushed in to help others on 9/11 were stupid? [Wesley Autrey](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/03/nyregion/03life.html) was just being stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/35 "2009-06-04T01:36:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Chickenhawks who preach the necessity of sacrificing lives and treasure for given war, but who aren’t willing to sacrifice anything themselves, for intance, are moral cowards. See also: Al Gore (as he preaches about global warming and lives in a mansion and flies a private jet around). Just wanted to point out that this attitude is possible on the left, too. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/36 "2009-06-04T01:42:02Z")
To a certain extent we don’t undercut criminals bravery. How many movies or tv shows or documentaries have people seen romanticizing criminals or gansters as folk heros or badass antiheroes? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/37 "2009-06-04T01:45:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So Gandhi and his marchers were stupid? > Martin Luther King, Jr. and all those other marchers were stupid? > The Apollo astronauts were stupid? > All of the people who volunteered to join the US military are stupid? > The firefighters and police and others who rushed in to help others on 9/11 were stupid? > [Wesley Autrey](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/03/nyregion/03life.html) was just being stupid? I’m not sure those are avoidable. Like, there’s no way to avoid rescuing people on 9/11 without rushing in there. But if there are ways of going to war with someone who committed an act of terrorism without killing people/risking lives (i.e., with missiles), then wouldn’t it be pointless and thus stupid to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/38 "2009-06-04T01:48:43Z")
nm… not worth the effort ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/39 "2009-06-04T01:51:53Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m not sure those are avoidable. Like, there’s no way to avoid rescuing people on 9/11 without rushing in there. But if there are ways of going to war with someone who committed an act of terrorism without killing people/risking lives (i.e., with missiles), then wouldn’t it be pointless and thus stupid to do so? But they didn’t have to try and rescue anyone. No one forced them to do it. They could have said “fuck that” and run away. Gandhi and his marchers could have said “no way, that will hurt” and just not gone. MLK, Jr. and the civil rights marchers could have just all moved to Montana. They all willingly and knowingly undertook actions and placed themselves in situations that could have been avoided. According to **Shodan** , they aren’t brave, just stupid. I disagree, tho. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574/40 "2009-06-04T01:57:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > They all willingly and knowingly undertook actions and placed themselves in situations that could have been avoided. According to **Shodan** , they aren’t brave, just stupid. > > I disagree, tho. True. But someone had to do those things, otherwise injustice would have prevailed. If there were a safer way, for example, that didn’t involve nonviolent protest, to get the British to leave India, would Gandhi and his men have been cowardly for choosing it? Is it cowardly for the U.S. to have fought via missiles, etc. instead of risking more lives? If they needlessly risked lives, wouldn’t we be right to criticize the government for wasting soldiers’ lives for no reason? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bravery-of-criminals/498574.md?page=3)