# The British called. They want their guns back. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 18, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818 "2009-01-18T03:17:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/1 "2009-01-18T03:17:32Z")
Video (09:07): [The British called. They want their guns back.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTq2NEUlhDE) I don’t know how old this is, but it seems familiar. I think I’ve heard about the guy who was sentenced to life in prison for killing an intruder in his isolated house in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/2 "2009-01-18T04:29:40Z")
Self defence nothing. He basically invited burglary, then waited night after night after night with his gun ready. All the indications are that he wanted to shoot a burglar for its own sake. Apparently he wanted to be The Punisher. It was definitely deliberate murder, and the self defence claim was rejected. Some facts about the case: [http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2001/2245.html](http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2001/2245.html) The rest of the film is every bit as accurate as the bit about Tony Martin. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/3 "2009-01-18T13:23:38Z")
Someone posted a very similar video some time ago, perhaps even the same one. That video contained footage from a fox-hunting protest march, i.e. an event that was at best tangentially related to guns. It seems to be the same here and that’s a bit dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/4 "2009-01-18T13:37:19Z")
Hurrah! Another thread about gun control in the UK 🙂 Invoking Tony Martin for uk gun control is the same as Godwinising any other thread… it’s such an extreme, unlikely and unrepresentative example that it has no place in a serious debate about the place of firearms in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/5 "2009-01-18T14:17:17Z")
I couldn’t even finish watching the video, the narrator’s voice is that irritating. However, I managed to get to “…for the first time ever, “bobbies” are carrying firearms…”. Umm, no, British police (not “bobbies”) have always had armed specialists (ARU’s), and this continues today. Ordinary policemen are _not_ armed. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/6 "2009-01-18T14:25:20Z")
^ Ordinary policemen can be armed if the situation calls for it. Late last year police in Hackney were armed at night; don’t know if that is still the case. And police in NI have always been armed. But then they were a constabulary not a police force for the longest time. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/7 "2009-01-18T14:27:33Z")
You know if someone took MY gun away and put me in jail for life, well thats the kind of thing that just makes a man want to grab a gun and start killing those bastards! oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/8 "2009-01-18T14:48:33Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The rest of the film is every bit as accurate as the bit about Tony Martin. Probably, but it should be noted that I haven’t seen any “smoking gun” evidence that removing guns from the populace aids with crime or murder rates. I don’t know if that means that I simply didn’t go deep enough into the Google search for studies or not,\* but I did look at everything that seemed relevant when I was researching answers for this thread: > **[Effect of armed guards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=477949)** > > I’m trying to find how if (and how much) effect having armed guards has on escalating violence versus unarmed guards. I really need facts and figures to show Mrs Cads boss so citations are definately needed. - Though I’ll note that the internet is a fairly liberal place and Google ranks things by how often they are linked to. It seems unlikely that gun nuts would outnumber all the anti-gun nuts on the net. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/9 "2009-01-18T15:04:42Z")
Note that a vast majority of the police themselves are opposed to them being armed as a matter of course. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/10 "2009-01-18T15:08:39Z")
Police in the UK depends a lot more on the community ties than the US. And in anycase if Armed backup is needed then it can be there in about 2 mins. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/11 "2009-01-18T15:33:44Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Note that a vast majority of the police themselves are opposed to them being armed as a matter of course. Norwegian Police recently (1. Sept 08) reported that since Sept 1. 2007 have armed themselves 1582 times, or roughly about four times every day. Yet still, only twelve shots have been fired the last six years, injuiring two and killing two. (The protocol is that the Police only arm themselves - with the weapons available in the car - when they consider the mission or stop to be actually dangerous. I have little reason to believe they deviate from this.) Just a data point. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/12 "2009-01-18T15:41:00Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Note that a vast majority of the police themselves are opposed to them being armed as a matter of course. That’s because if they are not armed they can’t go around shooting themselves in the foot. [Literally](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6974625.stm). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/13 "2009-01-18T15:57:33Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > Someone posted a very similar video some time ago, perhaps even the same one. That video contained footage from a fox-hunting protest march, i.e. an event that was at best tangentially related to guns. It seems to be the same here and that’s a bit dishonest. I did notice that. The video seems to be addressing three issues at the same time: Fox hunting, a rise in shootings since pistols were banned, and Tony Martin. I didn’t mean to be dishonest. When I watched it I shrugged off the fox hunting. (I think it’s wrong, but I don’t — ah, ‘have a dog in that fight’.) ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/14 "2009-01-18T16:20:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I didn’t mean to be dishonest. When I watched it I shrugged off the fox hunting. (I think it’s wrong, but I don’t — ah, ‘have a dog in that fight’.) Sorry, I didn’t mean you but the makers of that clip. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/15 "2009-01-18T17:21:59Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > And police in NI have always been armed. But then they were a constabulary not a police force for the longest time. What difference does that make? The police force in the northern highlands and island in Scotland is called the “Northern Constabulary” - it’s just a different word for the same thing (though obviously the RUC worked in a different way from police forces in Great Britain for various reasons). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/16 "2009-01-18T18:01:01Z")
In the way that the British transported it to their colonies, a Constabulary was armed, a police was not, and a constabulary was para-military in organisation. So in British India, you had the Punjab Police, in the Punjab, a pacified area, while you had the Frontier Constabulary on the Afghan border. It might be different in the UK itself ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/17 "2009-01-18T21:08:49Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > Norwegian Police recently (1. Sept 08) reported that since Sept 1. 2007 have armed themselves 1582 times, or roughly about four times every day. Yet still, only twelve shots have been fired the last six years, injuiring two and killing two. (The protocol is that the Police only arm themselves - with the weapons available in the car - when they consider the mission or stop to be actually dangerous. I have little reason to believe they deviate from this.) > > Just a data point. A useful one - Norway’s population is about the same as Greater Manchester, an area with deeply-entrenched pockets of armed rivalry between gangs but mostly covering perfectly normal, peaceful areas. Therefore, a few areas have rapid-response armed teams routinely on patrol, in vehicles and mostly unnoticed by the public, while most normal policing is done unarmed. I don’t offhand have figures for shots fired or people hit, but it’s not going to be anything vastly dissimilar to the Norwegian example. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/18 "2009-01-19T00:06:31Z")
As far as I can remember, there was _far_ more of an outcry over the foxhunting ban than over the handgun ban. When the handgun ban came in, the majority of people either supported it or didn’t care. As far as I can tell, that’s still the case. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/19 "2009-01-19T00:14:20Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Self defence nothing. He basically invited burglary, then waited night after night after night with his gun ready. All the indications are that he wanted to shoot a burglar for its own sake. Apparently he wanted to be The Punisher. It was definitely deliberate murder, and the self defence claim was rejected. > Some facts about the case: > > [Martin v R [2001] EWCA Crim 2245 (30 October 2001)](http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2001/2245.html) > The rest of the film is every bit as accurate as the bit about Tony Martin. I agree. If Tony Martin had been an American citizen and had done what he did in America, he’d have received a similar punishment. He shot someone in the back with a gun that he legally owned. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/20 "2009-01-19T03:08:29Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Self defence nothing. He basically invited burglary, then waited night after night after night with his gun ready. All the indications are that he wanted to shoot a burglar for its own sake. Apparently he wanted to be The Punisher. It was definitely deliberate murder, and the self defence claim was rejected. > Some facts about the case: > > [Martin v R [2001] EWCA Crim 2245 (30 October 2001)](http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2001/2245.html) > The rest of the film is every bit as accurate as the bit about Tony Martin. Even if he did want to shoot a burglar for its own sake, as long as he was actually being burgled, I don’t see why he deserved to be punished, let alone sentenced to life. Valete, Vox Imperatoris [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818.md?page=2)