# The British called. They want their guns back. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 18, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818 "2009-01-18T03:17:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/21 "2009-01-19T03:54:10Z")
Because as I read it, he had a house that looked like an unmaintained shed, dogs that attacked the burglars in his yard, and Tony gets up and loads his shot gun. The two men are trying to escape the dogs, or hell even if they aren’t, the enter the house thinking it empty. By this time, Mr Martin has descended the steps and taken aim at the men. He emptied his shot gun even as one was in the window trying to get back out. There is no indication in the account that Tony Martin was ever threatened or had a need to fear for his life. He offered no warning, he just shot the two men. I understand adrenaline pumping and all that other stuff going on, and I wasn’t on the jury, but it really sounds like he made no effort to ensure that he was at risk before he fired. SSG Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/22 "2009-01-19T09:27:16Z")
> [@SSG\_Schwartz](#): > > Because as I read it, he had a house that looked like an unmaintained shed, dogs that attacked the burglars in his yard, and Tony gets up and loads his shot gun. The two men are trying to escape the dogs, or hell even if they aren’t, the enter the house thinking it empty. By this time, Mr Martin has descended the steps and taken aim at the men. He emptied his shot gun even as one was in the window trying to get back out. > > There is no indication in the account that Tony Martin was ever threatened or had a need to fear for his life. He offered no warning, he just shot the two men. I understand adrenaline pumping and all that other stuff going on, and I wasn’t on the jury, but it really sounds like he made no effort to ensure that he was at risk before he fired. > > SSG Schwartz That’s all true. But many viewed it in the wider context of a man who had already been burgled a number of times, whose remote location meant the stretched police resources of Norfolk/Cambs would take a while to respond to a 999 call, and who was a victim of crime by Travellers (that in its own is enough for some people to call him innocent). The men weren’t there on lawful business, and his setup at the farm was well known (dogs, guns etc), so arguably they took the risk in commiting that crime. However, hard cases make bad law, and it’s generally better for people not to assume they can shoot people in the back to preserve property. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/23 "2009-01-19T12:18:08Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > The men weren’t there on lawful business, and his setup at the farm was well known (dogs, guns etc), so arguably they took the risk in commiting that crime. > > However, hard cases make bad law, and it’s generally better for people not to assume they can shoot people in the back to preserve property. This is true (on all counts). However, given that even repeated burglary isn’t a capital crime, TM’s approach which was clearly aimed at revenge wasn’t an appropriate response, despite the obvious frustration he must have been feeling. The other way of looking at it was that had he been acquitted, it could have set a precedent that repeated harassment could be legitimately stopped with the use of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/24 "2009-01-19T12:56:15Z")
We have a _Thames Valley Police_ and a _Hertfordshire Constabulary_. No difference between them, it’s just a word. The RUC were unarmed before The Troubles, (although the Ulster Special Constabulary was always armed) and even now their stated aim is to return to unarmed policing eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/25 "2009-01-19T14:27:05Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > This is true (on all counts). However, given that even repeated burglary isn’t a capital crime, TM’s approach which was clearly aimed at revenge wasn’t an appropriate response, despite the obvious frustration he must have been feeling. > > The other way of looking at it was that had he been acquitted, it could have set a precedent that repeated harassment could be legitimately stopped with the use of firearms. That doesn’t really seem like a bad precedent (in the case of harassment which includes people breaking into your dwelling.) ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/26 "2009-01-19T14:47:34Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That doesn’t really seem like a bad precedent (in the case of harassment which includes people breaking into your dwelling.) This is why Tony Martin commands significant sympathy from certain sections of the British population. There’s currently increasing pressure to give homeowners greater rights in cases such as this, but it’s hard to know whether the issue is a real one, or the result of tabloid stirring and the misplaced concerns of middle england. ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/27 "2009-01-19T15:48:44Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ^ > Ordinary policemen can be armed if the situation calls for it. Late last year police in Hackney were armed at night; don’t know if that is still the case. You got a cite for this anywhere? I certainly don’t remember seeing any cops with guns who weren’t the normal ARUs and I’m practically on “Murder Mile.” Not doubting you personally. I just find that frankly, whilst Hackney has problems, many are more to do with lazy journalism than anything else and I suspect this might be the same. The kids on my Estate didn’t even realise they were one of those evil hoody-wearing [postcode gangs](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6304345.stm) until a Daily Mail journalist turned up and told them they were. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/28 "2009-01-19T16:24:01Z")
Police carrying tasers count as “armed” in the UK, and they tend to be a bit less obvious than proper firearms… but patrols with tasers will still count as armed. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/29 "2009-01-19T18:14:37Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > …and who was a victim of crime by Travellers (that in its own is enough for some people to call him innocent). This is so, so shamefully true. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/30 "2009-01-19T18:32:51Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > Even if he did want to shoot a burglar for its own sake, as long as he was actually being burgled, I don’t see why he deserved to be punished, let alone sentenced to life. > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris The police, crown prosecution service, prosecuting lawyers, judge and jury all disagree with you. What makes you think you know better than them? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/31 "2009-01-19T18:50:58Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The police, crown prosecution service, prosecuting lawyers, judge and jury all disagree with you. As well as common and statutory law, and parliament. ---
**Author:** ![turner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@turner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turner)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/32 "2009-01-19T19:23:55Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The police, crown prosecution service, prosecuting lawyers, judge and jury all disagree with you. What makes you think you know better than them? For a board as liberal as this one, that’s a pretty interesting statement, as the same could be said for American Jim Crow laws, slavery laws, the anti-semitic laws of the Nazis, etc. Just because a government does something, doesn’t make it right. This is one of the hazards of a representative democracy (that is outweighed by its many benefits). This is why voting on issues rather than feelings is important. A vigalent, educate constituancy is necessary for a successful and free people to exist. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/33 "2009-01-19T19:29:29Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > This is why Tony Martin commands significant sympathy from certain sections of the British population. > > There’s currently increasing pressure to give homeowners greater rights in cases such as this, but it’s hard to know whether the issue is a real one, or the result of tabloid stirring and the misplaced concerns of middle england. Martin doesn’t command sympathy from people who know the facts of the case. From Peter Morris’ helpful link in post 2 of this thread: - the gun was unlicensed (because Martin had previously fired a gun at a man stealing his apples) - both the original jury and the Appeal Court found he used excessive force - he gave no warning and shot one intruder in the back - after killing the first man he then drove around (armed) looking for the second intruder - Martin also had Rottweiller dogs guarding his property ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/34 "2009-01-19T19:40:22Z")
> [@turner](#): > > For a board as liberal as this one, that’s a pretty interesting statement, as the same could be said for American Jim Crow laws, slavery laws, the anti-semitic laws of the Nazis, etc. . Oh, my eyes are open. Supporting the criminal prosecution of a vigilante murderer is similar to supporting slavery and the holocaust. Why on Earth did I not spot that before. Well, that’s my mind changed. Turns out that Tony Martin was a Schindler figure all along. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/35 "2009-01-19T19:50:46Z")
I say let Britain decide what it wants to do internally with guns. I just wish they’d reciprocate the courtesy and put a muzzle on their busy-body blabbermouths who feel the need to tell _us_ what to do with _our_ guns. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/36 "2009-01-19T20:14:19Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I say let Britain decide what it wants to do internally with guns. > > I just wish they’d reciprocate the courtesy and put a muzzle on their busy-body blabbermouths who feel the need to tell _us_ what to do with _our_ guns. None of the British people in this thread have suggested that Americans do not have a right to comment on UK laws and policies. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/37 "2009-01-19T20:52:48Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The police, crown prosecution service, prosecuting lawyers, judge and jury all disagree with you. What makes you think you know better than them? Then it’s a good thing for both of us that I don’t live in Britain. > [@G. Odoreida](#): > > None of the British people in this thread have suggested that Americans do not have a right to comment on UK laws and policies. I agree, and that’s all I’m doing, just commenting. I don’t presume the right to dictate British law. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/38 "2009-01-19T21:11:26Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > None of the British people in this thread have suggested that Americans do not have a right to comment on UK laws and policies. And neither have I. Your point? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/39 "2009-01-19T22:09:06Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > And neither have I. Your point? My point was that it seems that British people are quite happy for Americans to comment on British laws; we (at least in this thread) do not resort to petty insults that ignore any substantive points raised (“busy-body blabbermouths”) when said Americans disagree with us. ---
**Author:** ![turner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@turner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turner)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818/40 "2009-01-19T22:09:18Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Oh, my eyes are open. Supporting the criminal prosecution of a vigilante murderer is similar to supporting slavery and the holocaust. Why on Earth did I not spot that before. > > Well, that’s my mind changed. Turns out that Tony Martin was a Schindler figure all along. Typical over reaction. Point still stands. Just because a government says something is true and makes a law, doesn’t mean its correct morally or from a public policy stand point. This is the justification for everything from Thoreau to Ghandi to King. Look at the history of the laws I mentioned and the argument for prosecution and punishment were essentially the same–its the law, it was prosecuted in the courts and the acts or the mere fact of being something made it legal. I don’t really care about the case mentioned, I’m addressing your statment that because everyone agrees its against the law, its automatically right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-called-they-want-their-guns-back/481818.md?page=3)