# The British Isles when Rome fell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096 "2010-12-06T01:42:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/21 "2010-12-06T13:02:56Z")
I was making the point that if there were any bilingual Latin speakers, they would have been driven out with the rest of the Celtic-speakers, but your point makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/22 "2010-12-06T13:20:16Z")
But was Latin ever the primary vernacular language (as opposed to that of the army and the ruling elite) in most of the Roman Empire? In most areas of the former Roman Empire, the people today do _not_ speak Romance languages. Perhaps what really needs explanation is not why the British _do not_ speak a Romance language, but why the French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanians (and pretty much just them) _do_. (I guess there is not much mystery as to why the Italians do.) Why is French more descended from Latin than it is from Gaulish, or Frankish, or whatever else it was that most of their ancestors spoke during and after the Roman era? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/23 "2010-12-06T13:54:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’ve always found it interesting that England was one of the few places in the Western Empire where Latin did not survive in the form of a Romance language. Did Latin culture fail to establish roots in Britain, or were the Angles, Saxons and Jutes simply more efficient conquerers? Note that the Germanic people in the british isles were pure invaders, while in other parts of the empire they had already close ties with the Roman empire, were accustomed to the roman ways, organization, customs, etc…and were in part “romanized” themselves. That’s espaciallyu true for the foederati, like for instance the Franks in Gaul who have already been living there for quite some time (being in charge of the defense of the border regions) when Rome fell, often held roman titles or ranks, etc… When they took over or moved in, they just kept the institutions that they deemed useful (say, bishops, some semblance of administration, roman laws for their non-germanic “subjects”, etc…). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/24 "2010-12-06T14:47:28Z")
What you’re saying, essentially, is that the Western Empire - except for Britain - was Germanized by osmosis. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/25 "2010-12-06T15:20:19Z")
You can also check out _The Birth of Britain,_ which is Vol. 1 of Winston Churchill’s _A History of the English-Speaking Peoples._ I don’t know how well regarded it is critically, but it does deal with the period you’re interested in. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/26 "2010-12-06T15:27:14Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Several years ago, when in England, I visited Bath, where I saw the famous remains of the Roman baths. I’ve wondered since then why, when the Romans eventually left as the empire crumbled, local people did not opt to maintain the baths and other Roman imports. This led me to wonder what it was like there in other respects. > > For example, was the Roman withdrawal gradual? Roman military forces had been repeatedly dragged away from Britain in the century leading up to the end of Roman rule, including by Constantine the Great and Maxentius, amongst others. Then over the period 408 to 411 AD the British provinces may have staged some sort of rebellion and gone their own way, while at the same time Rome was being besieged by the Visigoths, which pretty much ended Roman rule quite quickly. Roman Imperial rule, that is, as your question contains the assumption that the Romans were once reigning Britain and then left, which is a matter of interpretation. > [@](#): > > Or did people just wake up one day and the invaders were gone? By the fifth century there were no invaders, the main parts of government were run by local bigwigs, possibly the descendants of pre-Roman chieftains dressed up with togas and villas, while the military had become a hereditary institution whose soldiers were the descendants of other soldiers who’d served in the same place. > [@](#): > > Presumably some Romans may have chosen to stay, but how many? By the fifth century it’s probably Britain had few if any people from the City of Rome, whereas the entire free population of the empire had been granted citizenship, so depending on how you look at it either next to none or two/three million ish. > [@](#): > > A handful? More? What was it like for the natives? The natives were Romans. Undoubtedly Roman ways of life continued after the fall of Imperial rule, for a certain period of time. BAths were maintained, Britain’s uniquely well fortified cities were kept up, some system of government by the cities probably survived. Eventually things went downhill, famines, loss of external trade, Pictish and Irish raids, inter-tribal conflict, loss of government revenue, rather large plagues, resultant emigration to the continent. > [@](#): > > I’ve looked without success for books on that time period in the British Isles. If anyone can suggest a source for information, especially some good books that would include this, I’d much appreciate it. The English Settlements by Myers, I quite like. Warlords by Laycock isn’t bad. > [@Alessan](#): > > I’ve always found it interesting that England was one of the few places in the Western Empire where Latin did not survive in the form of a Romance language. Did Latin culture fail to establish roots in Britain, or were the Angles, Saxons and Jutes simply more efficient conquerers? That’s a matter of debate. It could be that Latin failed to catch on or it could be that only the more civilised parts of Britain took up Latin in numbers, and were then conquered and their Latin displaced by the Saxons. > [@njtt](#): > > But was Latin ever the primary vernacular language (as opposed to that of the army and the ruling elite) in most of the Roman Empire? In most areas of the former Roman Empire, the people today do _not_ speak Romance languages. Perhaps what really needs explanation is not why the British _do not_ speak a Romance language, but why the French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanians (and pretty much just them) _do_. Of course the Eastern Empire had its lingua franca in Greek and the North African parts o fthe Western Empire were later conquered by Arabic speaking armies of Islam, hence no romance languages left there. > [@](#): > > (I guess there is not much mystery as to why the Italians do.) No? Well, not in Latium maybe, but in Etruria, Gallia Togata and Magnae Graecia? > [@](#): > > Why is French more descended from Latin than it is from Gaulish, or Frankish, or whatever else it was that most of their ancestors spoke during and after the Roman era? Most of their ancestors spoke Latin, or some similar language, during and after the Roman era, or from some point during the Roman occupation onward. Of course, even Italian had started to differ from Classical Latin by the fall of Rome. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Note that the Germanic people in the british isles were pure invaders, while in other parts of the empire they had already close ties with the Roman empire, were accustomed to the roman ways, organization, customs, etc…and were in part “romanized” themselves. That’s espaciallyu true for the foederati, like for instance the Franks in Gaul who have already been living there for quite some time (being in charge of the defense of the border regions) when Rome fell, often held roman titles or ranks, etc… When they took over or moved in, they just kept the institutions that they deemed useful (say, bishops, some semblance of administration, roman laws for their non-germanic “subjects”, etc…). You don’t support the theory, put forward by Laycock and others, that the Saxons were foederati or laeti then? Laycock puts forward quite a convincing case, and elsewhere I’ve heard the theory that the “Saxon Shore” was so named because it was manned BY Saxons rather than against them. Then, of course, there’s the traditional belief in the hiring of Saxon mercenaries by Vortigern and the involvement of men with Welsh names in the founding of various Saxon royal lines, such as Cerdic of Wessex. > [@Alessan](#): > > What you’re saying, essentially, is that the Western Empire - except for Britain - was Germanized by osmosis. Certainly places in, for example, France were more likely to keep their place names, the names of their tribal capitals in the Roman period, the territorial contiguity of noble estates and, of course, their vernacular languages, indicating a shallower settlement by foreign culture. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/27 "2010-12-06T16:38:27Z")
Interesting topic-we must not forget that the late Roman Empire had very sophisticated communications, and of course, good roads. So news from Brittania must have been known (in Rome) in a few weeks (at most). It is hard for me to accept that Brittania melted down quickly-Londonium was a major city, and Brittania had valuable exports (lead, copper, tin, pearls). Of course, once the soldiers left, Brittania was open to pirat attacks, and life probably got pretty dangerous. It would be nice to think that some places kept Roman culture (togas and orgies) into the 7th century. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/28 "2010-12-06T16:51:34Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Of course the Eastern Empire had its lingua franca in Greek and the North African parts o fthe Western Empire were later conquered by Arabic speaking armies of Islam, hence no romance languages left there. Were there N. African Romance languages prior to the Islamic invasion? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/29 "2010-12-06T17:14:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Were there N. African Romance languages prior to the Islamic invasion? [Probably](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Romance). ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/30 "2010-12-06T17:22:03Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Were there N. African Romance languages prior to the Islamic invasion? For what it’s worth, Wikipedia has a very brief article on [African Romance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Romance), which may have survived as late as the 17th century. However, information seems sketchy at best, and none of the primary references given in the Wiki article are in English — otherwise I would look into it more. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/31 "2010-12-06T17:38:12Z")
Sorry. I just have to do it. _Sheffield. When the walls fell._ We’re talking about centuries of decline, not an instant _poof, they’re gone_ ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/32 "2010-12-06T17:41:23Z")
Look here: > **[End of Roman rule in Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain)** > > The end of Roman rule in Britain was the transition from Roman Britain to post-Roman Britain. Roman rule ended in different parts of Britain at different times, and under different circumstances. > In 383, the usurper Magnus Maximus withdrew troops from northern and western Britain, probably leaving local warlords in charge. Around 410, the Romano-British expelled the magistrates of the usurper Constantine III. He had previously stripped the Roman garrison from Britain and taken it to Gaul in resp... > **[Sub-Roman Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Roman_Britain)** > > Sub-Roman Britain is the period of late antiquity in Great Britain between the end of Roman rule and the Anglo-Saxon settlement. The term was originally used to describe archaeological remains found in 5th- and 6th-century AD sites that hinted at the decay of locally made wares from a previous higher standard under the Roman Empire. It is now used to describe the period that commenced with the recall of Roman troops to Gaul by Constantine III in 407 and to have concluded with the Battle of Deo... > **[Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_invasion)** > > The Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain is the process which changed the language and culture of most of what became England from Romano-British to Germanic. The Germanic-speakers in Britain, themselves of diverse origins, eventually developed a common cultural identity as Anglo-Saxons. This process principally occurred from the mid-fifth to early seventh centuries, following the end of Roman rule in Britain around the year 410. The settlement was followed by the establishment of the Heptarchy, ... ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/33 "2010-12-06T18:23:57Z")
Thanks, everyone! Some great leads here to help me get started! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/34 "2010-12-06T18:54:20Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Isn’t the story of King Arthur supposed to be a legend of one of the last Roman commanders in Britain? That’s one movie version (_King Arthur_, 2004) that I know of, but not an element of most tellings. Like most iterations, the film combines historical tidbits from at least two separate periods with fantasy. Among historical figures whose real deeds were incorporated _somewhere_ into the overall body of Arthurian stories, sure, some of those men were from the Roman era, but others weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/35 "2010-12-06T19:45:07Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Sorry. I just have to do it. > > _Sheffield. When the walls fell._ “The Saxons, at Londinium.” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/36 "2010-12-06T21:15:36Z")
It was traditionally thought that the Romans never actually made it to Ireland but it seems there is [archeological evidence to the contrary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumanagh). However, it doesn’t seem that the Romans had as significant a presence here as they had in England. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096/37 "2010-12-06T21:17:17Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > That’s one movie version (_King Arthur_, 2004) that I know of, but not an element of most tellings. Like most iterations, the film combines historical tidbits from at least two separate periods with fantasy. > > Among historical figures whose real deeds were incorporated _somewhere_ into the overall body of Arthurian stories, sure, some of those men were from the Roman era, but others weren’t. Another more recent movie called\* The Last Legion\* alludes to this but it’s not a great movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-british-isles-when-rome-fell/563096.md?page=1)