# The Brits, the Scots , the Finns, the Danes, the Swedes, **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608 "2010-08-08T17:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/41 "2010-08-09T04:44:58Z")
I’ll throw in my story from the thread in the OP’s link: \*\*Having lived in Hawaii, I do, of course, remember the story that the state’s US Senator Daniel Inouye himself liked to tell of the time, as a newbie, he decided to introduce himself to House Speaker Sam Rayburn. Said Rayburn: “I know who you are. How many one-armed Japs do you think we have in the House?” (Inouye lost an arm fighting in Europe in the US Army.) Inouye remembered the incident fondly. :D\*\* Still, while I use Brit and Swede and the like without regard, it’s probably best not to use Jap in this day and age. (Note on Afghani, mentioned in this thread. The Afghani is the unit of currency in Afghanistan. The people are Afghans. An Afghan may have some Afghanis in his pocket. I think the confusion comes from the use of Pakistani next door.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/42 "2010-08-09T04:46:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Anymore, I’m convinced that topics like this are for people who just want to use racial slurs – and are trying to convince themselves that they’re not _really_ offensive. Thankyou **Guin** for your sage opinion on my motives. Now please run your sanctimonious bottom along. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/43 "2010-08-09T05:16:29Z")
**Guin** , you are out of line. **Dutchman** , you’d have done better to ignore her than to keep it going. Both of you, knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/44 "2010-08-09T06:09:42Z")
Speaking as an Aussie, I think some people grossly overreact to the word. I don’t use it, but that’s just because the overly long “Japanese person” is still less of a hassle than dealing with thin-skinned Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/45 "2010-08-09T06:11:59Z")
Going right back to the OP, the premise is wrong. Scot and Finn are not short forms derived from the country names. The country names are derived from the name of the peoples. A true Scot knows that Scotland is where the Scots currently live. In fact, we are bemused to be called anything else, for instance we never describe ourselves as Scotsmen. My guess is that Dane is the same, possibly also Swede. Brit is different being slang. As a Briton, I am suspicious of Brit. It is usually used as an affectionate diminutive, but can be used disparagingly. Best avoided. Jap? Well, they didn’t call the country Japland after the Japs. In Britain it was always used as an insult from the WWII period to the appearance of imported vehicles. Now it is only used as an adjective in motorcycling circles, with ‘Jap bike’ generally regarded as a positive expression (very different connotations in the USA I understand). ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/46 "2010-08-09T10:32:25Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Count me as one who doesn’t see the problem with Jap or Paki. They are just obvious shortenings of the country name, and don’t strike me as particularly racist. The problem with Jap seems to come exclusively from WWII racism. Before than it was a benign word, and the only reason it is now considered racists is that it was used alongside racist attacks. Those racists didn’t use it for any other reason than it was an easy abbreviation, so it differs from Kraut or Keke or Chink. > > The only reason that I don’t use Jap or Paki is because I know other people think they are racist epithets. So maybe that’s the only problem with them. If everyone stopped thinking they were racist, well then I guess they would be ok. It’s all about context and history, isn’t it. I’ve no doubt that ‘Paki’ might not be a racist slur where you are from. For all I know, it isn’t regarded as such in Pakistan. But in the UK it’s as loaded as ‘nigger’ and stems from negative, racist attitudes to immigrants from the Indian Subcontinent who arrived here from the 50s to the 70s. So, ALL people of South Asian descent where called ‘Paki’, even if they were probably from India or Bangladesh. Corner shops selling groceries and newspapers were routinely called ‘Paki shops’, as many immigrants from the Indian subcontinent ran them. Going for an Indian meal was ‘going for a Paki’. It was a favourite slur slung at and by schoolchildren. There’s probably hardly a Brit of South Asian descent who hasn’t been derided or dismissed with the word at some point. So it’s extremely offensive here and really jars my ears. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/47 "2010-08-09T10:38:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Count me as one who doesn’t see the problem with Jap or Paki. They are just obvious shortenings of the country name, and don’t strike me as particularly racist. One of the many uses of the word “paki” by British racists has been to class all people from South Asia (and beyond) under the same slur. Thus “paki” has been used to describe Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indians, Nepalese, Sri Lankans, and I once heard an Irish racist I shared a house with use it to describe Malaysians. It’s not a simple contraction of the country name in that context. ETA: I see **SanVito** said the same thing as me, but earlier. I wrote most of the post then went to the toilet before posting it. Now I look like an arriviste, and all because of my bladder. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/48 "2010-08-09T12:08:26Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > ETA: I see **SanVito** said the same thing as me, but earlier. I wrote most of the post then went to the toilet before posting it. Now I look like an arriviste, and all because of my bladder. 🙂 That’s okay, you can be my wing man ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/49 "2010-08-09T12:24:32Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Honestly, I can’t imagine anyone I know using the term ‘Jap’ without knowing it was a slur. I believe **The Flying Dutchman** when he says he doesn’t see it that way, but if someone used that term to describe, say, sushi, I would find that really unusual and fairly offensive. Well, I know that “jap” _can_ be used as a slur, but had no idea that it was _usually_ (if not _always_) considered a slur (I’m a native American from Michigan). I was directed to this thread from the original thread because I expressed my dismay at the moderator non-warning over there. In fact I still have a hard time imagining the “can” be used as a slur. Hell, even saying “f’ing japs,” the real slur seems to be the censured word. And really, I’m not generally very obtuse. It’s obvious in my vocabulary that some other ethnic works _definitely are_ slurs (“nip” being one), but jap=japanese strikes me as incredible. Another perfectly good word I now have to add to my blacklist (also debating adding “retarded” from another thread). > [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s simple. In American English, it is considered an offensive ethnic slur. I’ve heard it used in British English without the same sort of connotation. On the other hand, “Paki” is quite loaded in British English, but I’m not sure it really would register (if used) here in the US. (I’m not aware of anyone using that term, and when I first heard it in British English, I did not recognize its level of offense.) This is another one we (in my professional sphere) use: “Pakis.” I don’t know if it’s a slur in US English or not, but I always assume “not” since we use it so casually (like “jap,” but never “nip” nor “kyke” nor “nigger”). Because there are fewer Pakistanis in the USA, I suppose we don’t have the general experience with the word yet. ---
**Author:** ![Elvis\_Chimney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/50afbb/32.png) [@Elvis\_Chimney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elvis_Chimney)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/50 "2010-08-09T13:09:28Z")
I can understand not being aware that a particular term is considered offensive - especially given that these things change from country to country. “Paki” will get you a well-deserved smack in the mouth in the UK, whilst it might be acceptable elsewhere. My (Scottish) mother prefers to use the term “coloured” when speaking about black people because she thinks it’s the most polite term, an opinion which my (American) girlfriend doesn’t share. But surely the correct response on discovering that a term is considered to be offensive by some is to do a bit of reading and conclude “ok I can see why some people find that offensive, I’ll try to moderate my language from now on” rather than “well I don’t find that offensive so I don’t see what the fuss is”. The brilliant comedian Stewart Lee sums up the distinction quite well in the first five minutes of [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91KQs12-q4) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/51 "2010-08-09T13:33:47Z")
The term Pakistanis use to describe themselves is just that; Pakistani. Or _Desi_ literally countryman. Paki or Pak (the latter sounds weird) are unheard of. Not offensive either. Afghan; is another name for a Pashtun. Afghani is a citizen of Afghanistan. And Afghan can be an Afghani, an Afghani is not necessarily an Afghan. So, [Ghulam Ishaq Khan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulam_Ishaq_Khan) and [Ayub Khan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayub_Khan) were certainly Afghans, but were not Afghanis, they were (very proud) Pakistanis. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/52 "2010-08-09T13:38:26Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > The Brits, the Scots , the Finns, the Danes, the Swedes, are all short form references for citizen based on the name of their country. These names basically end on hard consonants with minimum syllables. My understanding was that Scotland and Denmark were so called _because_ they were the homes of the Scots and the Danes, not the other way round. The Scots, or Scotti, for example, were identified as a people when they were in Ireland, before resettling in what _therefore_ became known as Scotland. The Danes, or Dani, were identified as a people when they were in (present-day) Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/53 "2010-08-09T13:44:41Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I don’t know if it’s a slur in US English or not, but I always assume “not” since we use it so casually (like “jap,” but never “nip” nor “kyke” nor “nigger”). I don’t think it is. At least, I was introduced to the word by a pair of Pakistani-American students who lived in the same dorm. They used the word freely and never seemed to mind when I did the same. It was only years later that I found out that it was considered offensive in British English. Of course, that was nearly 10 years ago. And these things do change. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/54 "2010-08-09T14:01:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nazi is an ideology, not an ethnic group. The corresponding word is for Germans “Kraut”. I would have thought that the German equivalent to “Jap” would have been “Jerry”. “Kraut” isn’t derived from the name of the country or nationality: it’s similar to “Limey” or “Pom” for English people, or even “Yank” for Americans. However, whether the word is derived from the country’s name, or from some (alleged) characteristic of the nationality, the offensiveness is entirely based on usage, not on any objective criteria on how the word was derived. (As many other have said already.) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/55 "2010-08-09T15:52:21Z")
Jap isn’t really considered offensive in Ireland. We use the term a lot when describing imported cars. “Jap imports” would be a pretty common phrase here. I’d never use the term in America or to Americans though as I’m aware of the offense it could cause. “Paki” = “nigger” in its offensivness here. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/56 "2010-08-09T15:55:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > “Paki” is quite loaded in British English One of the clues that “Paki” is a slur and not simply a shortened ethnic term is that it is used as a demeaning term for anyone who looks South Asian. It’s not used to identify actual Pakistanis. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/57 "2010-08-09T16:02:50Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Is the use of “Pak” as a noun to describe Pakistanis really that common? Perhaps my experience is too limited, but it sounds quite odd to my ears. I’ve heard “Pak” used in India pretty commonly, even in news reports. “Pak defense minister” and stuff like that, especially in newspaper headlines. Over here, I’ve encountered a service station called “Pak Auto Service” owned and staffed by Pakistani immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/58 "2010-08-09T16:12:54Z")
Right, but that seems more like an adjective than a noun. You’d say “British defense minister” and “British Auto Service”, not “Briton defense minister” and “Briton auto service”, I think. Do people say things like “That service station is owned and staffed by Paks”? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/59 "2010-08-09T16:18:28Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Right, but that seems more like an adjective than a noun. You’d say “British defense minister” and “British Auto Service”, not “Briton defense minister” and “Briton auto service”, I think. Do people say things like “That service station is owned and staffed by Paks”? Near me in Oxford is a shop called “Pak Halal” (stop press: really really cheap veg and chicken breasts!). However, from reading Indian media, I agree that “Pak” is a contraction of the country as an adjective, and is not a noun for the individual countrymen. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/60 "2010-08-09T17:02:56Z")
"Pak"is used as a contraction for the country as a whole, not the people. For example Sino-Pak relations, Pak Aernautical Coorperation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608.md?page=4)