# The Brits, the Scots , the Finns, the Danes, the Swedes, **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608 "2010-08-08T17:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/61 "2010-08-09T17:15:08Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Speaking as an Aussie, I think some people grossly overreact to the word. I don’t use it, but that’s just because the overly long “Japanese person” is still less of a hassle than dealing with thin-skinned Americans. What’s offensive varies from country to country - I don’t think that Americans are thin-skinned just because different words are offensive in the US compared to Australia. > [@Balthisar](#): > > Well, I know that “jap” _can_ be used as a slur, but had no idea that it was _usually_ (if not _always_) considered a slur (I’m a native American from Michigan). In fact I still have a hard time imagining the “can” be used as a slur. Hell, even saying “f’ing japs,” the real slur seems to be the censured word. Well, we’ve heard from many places where it is not considered offensive. In my experience it is always a slur, and I have lived in the same area as the OP, so it’s odd to me that he has not experienced it that way. In any case, in the original post that precipitated all this, **Crafter\_Man** was pretty clearly using the term offensively, saying that he wouldn’t buy Japanese imports because of “what the Japs did to us in WWII”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/62 "2010-08-09T19:05:37Z")
Please pretend that I am Jay Leno for a moment. What do you call a Kurd who lives in Turkey ? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/63 "2010-08-09T19:31:39Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > What do you call a Kurd who lives in Turkey ? Seriously? I imagine “Turkish Kurd” would about cover it. Or if you were saying it to their face and they were ardent Kurdish nationalists that found that construction off-putting, just “a Kurd from Turkey.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/64 "2010-08-09T19:42:37Z")
He wants you to say “Turd.” ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/65 "2010-08-09T19:46:11Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > He wants you to say “Turd.” Ah. Well. I don’t believe I will. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/66 "2010-08-09T19:56:24Z")
Kirk? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/67 "2010-08-09T20:05:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Obviously nigger has a much worse history associated it, but I don’t think anyone is particularly pleased with the choice of “black” either. We’ve gone from nigger–\> negro–\> colored–\> black–\> African American and apparently we are back to black. All of them have the taint that I mentioned, in that these ethnicities don’t really exist. Obviously that’s a vast simplification because a lot of Americans identify as black, so I suppose that means that ethnicity exists now, but really its complicated. I am black, and I have always refused African-American. _Black_ has no particular taint of racism to me. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/68 "2010-08-09T21:20:56Z")
> [@What do you refuse to do out of principle?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-refuse-to-do-out-of-principle/549428/87): > > are all short form references for citizen based on the name of their country. These names basically end on hard consonants with minimum syllables. > > And there is also the Swiss, the Irish. > > If the name of a country is not conducive to a shortened name for a citizen we may adopt a name such as the Canucks or the Yanks. > > None of the above terms are considered as offensive even though the terms are used occasionally in a derogatory manner. > > I recently came across this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12777774&postcount=87). > > > [@What do you refuse to do out of principle?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-refuse-to-do-out-of-principle/549428/87): > > > > **Moderator Note** : 1941 called and wants its racist epithet back. Good lord, **Crafter\_Man** , you’ve been here long enough to know we frown on racial epithets around here. > > > > And while it’s fair to say they provided the initial provocation, we more than paid them back, destroying cities and annihilating far more of their civilians than they ever did of ours. > > I find it very difficult to read any intended offence when the word "Jap’ is used . The abreviation is so in line with other names of nationalities. I can’t see how the word is racist either, since the Japanese people are not a race unto themselves. > > I would consider the name “Nip”, an abreviation of the actual name of Japan, as deliberately offensive given the implication of the Japanese’s smaller stature. This particular term is on the same level as “Chinks” which gives the implication not only of smaller stature, but imperfection as well. > > Back during WWII, the Marine Corps wasn’t exactly satisfied with the use of “Japs” as a derogatory term. They tried to introduce the word “Japes”. They didn’t think “Japs” was derogatory enough. > > So why am I bringing all this up ? Because I don’t think the term is offensive to the Japanese people and it is only misguided anti-racist sentries in some English speaking countries that keep the idea of the term as offensive alive. And venues of discourse such as the SDMB will apply sanctions for its usage. Its high time that we eliminate the discomfort in the usage of the word “Japs” and return to the usage in the same manner that we employ for other friendly nationalities. > > It is interesting to note that the [Engish speaking countries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap) that were occupied or threatened with occupation by the Japanese in WWII do not regard the term as offensive. > > > [@](#): > > > > In Singapore[9] and Hong Kong,[10] the term is used freely as a contraction of the adjective “Japanese” rather than as a derogatory term. The Australian news service Asia Pulse also uses the term.[11] In 1970, the Japanese fashion designer Kenzo Takada opened the “Jungle Jap” boutique in Paris.[12] In Japan itself, most Japanese are apathetic about the term, according to a 2004 study.[1] > > Seems as if the Japanese couldn’t care less. We don’t! -Shimono-sama ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/69 "2010-08-09T21:27:40Z")
However you are right in saying we would consider \_\_\_ing Jap as slur. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/70 "2010-08-09T21:28:08Z")
As is commonly the case, the usage of the term “Paki” has an odd history. Here in Canada, it was in the '70s and '80s a vicious and even violent ethnic slur - it was associated with skinheads “Paki-bashing” (that is, beating up people, presumed to be recent immigrants, of south asian origin - who may or may not actually have been Pakistani). These days, I haven’t heard the term “Paki-bashing” in years - no doubt there are still racist skinheads, or their equivalent haters, around, but they don’t appear to be specifically targeting south asians, particularly. Perhaps as a result, the term “Paki”, while still offensive, is losing some of its bite and is even being used in a ‘reclaim the word’ sort of way by some people of south asian origin to describe themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/71 "2010-08-09T21:47:19Z")
There are really two different questions being discussed in this thread, and I think that as a result folks are talking past each other. On the one hand, there’s the question of whether “Jap” or “Paki” or even “nigger” is offensive, and on the other, there’s the question of whether it _should_ be offensive. The “should” question could be endlessly debated (what does it even mean to ask whether a word “should” mean something?), but for the “is” question, the answer is yes, those words are offensive, at least in some contexts. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/72 "2010-08-09T21:50:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > (what does it even mean to ask whether a word “should” mean something?) I dunno, but let me tell you what it _should_ mean… ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/73 "2010-08-09T22:45:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … (what does it even mean to ask whether a word “should” mean something?) … Well, some people in Britain seem to use “Paki” indiscriminately to mean people from India, Bangladesh, or anywhere else in South Asia. So you could argue that: (1) The denotation of “Paki” should be a person from Pakistan, and (2) The connotation should be neutral, rather than derogatory as it seems to be. So sometimes “should mean” does mean something 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/74 "2010-08-09T23:01:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There are really two different questions being discussed in this thread, and I think that as a result folks are talking past each other. On the one hand, there’s the question of whether “Jap” or “Paki” or even “nigger” is offensive, and on the other, there’s the question of whether it _should_ be offensive. The “should” question could be endlessly debated (what does it even mean to ask whether a word “should” mean something?), but for the “is” question, the answer is yes, those words are offensive, at least in some contexts. I understand what you are saying, but may I suggest, that under no circumstances can “nigger” be regarded as anything other than offensive…unless spoken by a black. It has never been used by others in a context that is friendly to or respectful of blacks and never will be. There simply is no reason to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Batfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Batfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batfish)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/75 "2010-08-09T23:01:23Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I can’t see how the word is racist either, since the Japanese people are not a race unto themselves. I suddenly find myself ignorant about which peoples or ethnicities or regions do constitute races unto themselves. Could you tell me how you divide up the world into obvious races? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/76 "2010-08-09T23:15:03Z")
> [@Batfish](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > I can’t see how the word is racist either, since the Japanese people are not a race unto themselves. > > I suddenly find myself ignorant about which peoples or ethnicities or regions do constitute races unto themselves. Could you tell me how you divide up the world into obvious races? I don’t, race is a social construct and I believe the conventional divisions of race are of little significance. But to respond, it is my understanding (and you may correct me if I’m wrong) that those who do divide people into races observe the “colours” white, black, yellow, red and brown. :D. Are the Brits a race? If so, then you are entitled to call the Jap anese a race. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/77 "2010-08-09T23:15:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I understand what you are saying, but may I suggest, that under no circumstances can “nigger” be regarded as anything other than offensive…unless spoken by a black. It has never been used by others in a context that is friendly to or respectful of blacks and never will be. There simply is no reason to do so. I was unclear there: I didn’t mean to imply that there were contexts where “nigger” is not offensive. I put in the “at least in some contexts” because of the other two, since folks in this thread have mentioned contexts where “Paki” or “Jap” aren’t offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/78 "2010-08-09T23:44:29Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > There are really two different questions being discussed in this thread, and I think that as a result folks are talking past each other. On the one hand, there’s the question of whether “Jap” or “Paki” or even “nigger” is offensive, and on the other, there’s the question of whether it _should_ be offensive. The “should” question could be endlessly debated (what does it even mean to ask whether a word “should” mean something?), but for the “is” question, the answer is yes, those words are offensive, at least in some contexts. > > I understand what you are saying, but may I suggest, that under no circumstances can “nigger” be regarded as anything other than offensive…unless spoken by a black. It has never been used by others in a context that is friendly to or respectful of blacks and never will be. There simply is no reason to do so. But it gives me an excuse to punch people! That’s a good thing, right? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/79 "2010-08-10T01:09:48Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Are the Brits a race? If so, then you are entitled to call the Jap anese a race. [2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Race) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/80 "2010-08-10T01:34:36Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Nazi is an ideology, not an ethnic group. The corresponding word is for Germans “Kraut”. > > I would have thought that the German equivalent to “Jap” would have been “Jerry”. “Kraut” isn’t derived from the name of the country or nationality: it’s similar to “Limey” or “Pom” for English people, or even “Yank” for Americans. I always took “Jerry” to refer only to the German military personnel. Kraut was used to refer to any German. But I could be wrong… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608.md?page=5)